CP_Rainier - 5CP Push Map - Current Ver.: A7A

[Will T.]

Well, I think I've got something I can be comfortable calling A2 now. It went much quicker than expected!

Changes from A1 FIX:

-Raised the skybox significantly. You should see no visual difference, but now you won't hit it when rocket- or sticky-jumping!
--Keep in mind that this means you CAN jump high enough to see glitchyness through the skybox geometry. This is expected and will be addressed during the detailing phase (i.e. much much later).
--There are also a small number of places where you can seem to jump high enough to land on top of or jump over certain objects, but are stopped by player-clipping. This is also expected, but I'm less certain of what to do about it; how and when I will address it depends largely on how annoying or distracting it is to others.
-Opened up a lot more space in the interior areas, mostly in the buildings between the middle and forward points.
-Replaced several sliding doors with open doorways.
-Removed a few objects that were there largely as a means of blocking long sightlines.
--The focus on obstructing sightlines is a holdover from my previously-mentioned TF2Maps days. There is a general feeling there that sniper sightlines = bad, but sadly it has evolved from "sniper sightlines should be present, but limited" to "snipers should have no sightlines whatsoever." They will label a map in which snipers are at all effective as bad. It's like they have a phobia. I need to un-teach myself their ideas regarding snipers, which is a tad difficult so far...
-Expanded the final CP buildings a bit, and consequently shrunk the balconies next to them.
-Replaced all existing small health packs with medium ones.
-Added health and ammo pickups to the side hallways in the buildings between the mid and forward CPs.
-Added a small health pack to the sheds in front of the final CPs.
-Moved health and ammo in the buildings across from the final CPs closer to the door near the base.
-Re-aligned all textures on the BLU side to match the RED side.
--Previously they were rotated 180 degrees, because that side of the map is a copy-pasted version of the RED side.
-Other miscellaneous tweaks.

Known issues:

-Window frame prop near RED forward point is still missing. Still not sure what's up with it. I might just delete and re-make that wall.
-Tilted textures on the shed near the BLU final CP. I decided this wasn't major enough to recompile the map for, and it will be fixed in the next version.
-Previously-mentioned visual weirdness when you rocket- or sticky-jump too high. This will be fixed at a later date, but is not a high priority.

Download here!

I'm still looking for feedback on the same things as before, plus the changes made here. Special thanks to Zork for the detailed feedback!

My plan regarding next Wednesday's test, if we will indeed run it (I'm up for it, especially if it's in the evening; all we need is to set a time, get the word out, and make sure there's an admin or two available to help run it), is to keep working on it and get a version ready by no later than Wednesday morning which will be the one to be tested. If you see anything you think could be improved, please don't hesitate to speak up - it can't get changed if I don't know about it!

[Will T.]

Just put up another updated version. Changes include:

-Significant changes to mid.
--Moved numerous doorways to new locations.
--Added a couple of new doorways.
--Removed some sliding doors.
-Redesigned the central cap building.
--Opened up and redesigned the lofts overhead - they now serve as a second story for assaulting/defending the middle CP.
--Expanded the entire building and added stairways within leading up to the lofts.
-Finally fixed the missing window frame prop near RED's forward CP!
-Raised the inaccessible bridges on the side-paths near the forward CPs so that soldiers and demos (especially demos) can explosive-jump through the corridor.
-Fixed some misaligned textures.
-Adjusted lighting on the final cap, among other places.

As Flash posted in the event forum, this map will be run on the event server next Wednesday at 9 PM Central. Anyone and everyone is encouraged to join! The more people join up, the better a sense I will get of how the map plays, and the more feedback can be acquired from the playtest. If you want to give the map a run on your own beforehand, feel free to do so, and please share any thoughts you have!

Download the newest version here.

If you'd like to try it out with bots (they are highly unintelligent, but they do at least give you someone to play with and give a general feel of how classes will move around the map on a super-basic level), perform the following steps:

0.) Enable the console under Options -> Keyboard -> Advanced Settings if you have not done so already.
1.) Load up the map in a listen server (use the "Create Server" button from the main menu or open the console and type "map cp_rekkit_a3" without quotation marks [everything you will be told to enter in the console in these steps should be without quotation marks]).
2.) Open the console and enter "sv_cheats 1" to enable cheats.
3.) Enter "nav_generate" and wait several minutes. The game is now generating a navigation mesh which the bots will use to find their way around the map. Once this is finished, the server will restart.
3 1/2.) If you like, exit to the main menu and remake your listen server so that you can re-enable everything that is blocked by cheats (achievements, etc.).
4.) While in the map, enter "tf_bot_add XX" in the console, replacing XX with the desired number of bots.
5.) Have fun watching them fail spectacularly!

[Zork Nemesis]

Forgot to bring it up, I took another run around the new map, tried it in a 6v6 with the TF bots; they don't actually help since they're dumber than rocks.

I noticed you opened up spaces more, particurally the in-between rooms between 2 and3. That's good. It's still a little cramped but it's better than it was initially.

The ramps in the middle building, I had actually envisioned them being outside, sort of like a back staircase. They do work but they seemed a little off to the side to reach. I thought about it, i'd think the upstairs should be accessible from the outside only (sans explosive jumping) with the access ramp being in the corner close to the forward spawns. But for right now leave it as is and see how it plays out during our test run on Wednesday.

EDIT: What i'm thinking: Have the ramp begin where you have your left-hand window in this particular screenshot:

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I didn't really notice too much else at fault, I still think you have too many sliding doors, but that's just me. What I would like to see though is a supply locker in the forward spawns, so that if you change your loadout after you respawn, you don't have to suicide or spend time switching classes to shift to it. It would also be nice in the first forward spawn (when 3 is captured but 4 is not) if it was easier or more apparent to access the upstairs exit.

[Will T.]

I wanted to have the ramps outside initially, but upon experimenting with several different options, they always either looked butt-ugly or intruded too heavily on the rest of the area. I've found a potential solution now that might avoid both of those problems, but I'll keep them as they are for the playtest, then decide whether they'd benefit from being placed outdoors. From an aesthetic standpoint I would like to move them, as I think the middle building looks rather ugly with that square shape to it and would like to return some variance to its overall shape.

[Will T.]

... Well, the more I look at those interior ramps at mid, the more I wish they weren't there. I'm choosing to take this as a sign that they need to go.

A new version is up which moves the ramps to the outside, where they look much nicer IMO. I wanted them outside initially, but it took me a while to find a spot for them where they didn't either mess up the aesthetics or create flow problems around the point. I think I found a solution that has neither of these problems.

Even more important in this update is something you won't be able to see directly: I've added player-clipping to most of the doorways in the map, specifically those with a "lip" of 16 Hammer Units or less. This means that you won't get hung up on the tiny walls that jut out near the doors. It is still, and always will be, possible to get caught on the walls since nothing is perfect, but this should eliminate the vast majority of cases. Keep in mind that only doorways with sufficiently small "lips" received clipping - many doors were unaltered.

There were also some small tweaks to objects that weren't aligned to the grid correctly. Nothing major, but it hopefully removes some minor visual defects.

Download here.

[Will T.]

A4 is now officially the version of the map that will be tested tomorrow on the event server. Download it here!

Drop in at 9PM Ville Time (Central time) and help out with the playtest! This will be a valuable data-gathering opportunity and a chance to see how the map performs with real people. The more people show up, the better I can know how to improve the map!

[Gearloose]

My comments following tonight's playtest:

1) Nice map! Already pretty good, and with polish I think it will be great.
2) Missing sound effects for the 2nd and 4th caps.
3) The 1st and 5th caps should be the size of the room they're in (not certain about this though)
4) Navigation is pretty good, but well-chosen decorations (especially arrows) would make it better.
5) It's a bit pyro-friendly and sniper-unfriendly, but I don't have a specific suggestion here.
6) I really like the middle cap - this is one spot that is sniper-friendly outside, and the inside is great for demo play, especially with the columns and upstairs entrances.
7) There are a couple of fences on the ground left of the first spawn that I was tempted to try jumping over, but you can't. Maybe put them behind chickenwire walls, or allow jumping in there.
Spies need some props to perch on - the occasional barrel or crate where it won't impede other classes.

Keep up the good work!

[Gearloose]

Oh, and more metal for engies. I'd suggest that the metal drops behind the bay windows overlooking the central courtyard should be large instead of medium, and there should be one small on each of the balconies overlooking the mid point. Also need a medium closer to 2nd and 4th caps.

[Will T.]

Thanks for the notes! Several of those are things I've been unsure about, so this will help me to make solid changes.


I think that tonight's playtest was a huge success, if I may say so myself! We managed over 60 minutes of playtime with teams of around 9 players at all times! Here's a big thank-you to all the brave testers who dove into the untried frontier to see how it behaves in a normal game. There will be more tests in the future, of course - such is the process with mapping!

I took notes off-and-on throughout the testing session and have a small list of some of the things I heard/noticed (if I missed some, which I'm almost certain I did, please let me know):

-Need more signs/other indicators of where to go
-Possibly remove central walls in the building between forward and mid
-Railings around mid impede movement a bit
-Non-dev textures would aid in navigation
-More signs of where to go from spawn
-Bigger cap zones at mid and final
-Sticky bombs stick to certain sides of some doors and behave strangely when the doors are opened
-First-floor ceilings in the buildings between points might be too low
-More headroom on staircases could be helpful

Again, thanks to all who came out! I got lots of valuable data and was glad to see that the map is already fun, which is kind of important for a map.

[The Domer]

First, let me say I really enjoyed playing this tonight! I loved to see some villun creativity in action. Two thoughts below:

-The map in general felt very cramped. Low ceilings in the interior rooms, lots of rooms and chambers throughout. Very friendly for demos, spies, and pyros I think, but maybe not so much for most of the other classes.

-I had a hard time getting the flow down, couldn't really figure out a good roll-out to mid. Maybe that's because of the limited exposure, but I think it might tie in with my first point.


Can't wait to try out future versions!

[Fingolfin]

I really enjoyed the map playing as heavy, mainly because of the lack of sniper action. Take that how you will.

There was a path along one edge of the map, out in the open and from maybe 1 to 2, I used once or twice. Not sure how much traffic it got, but it seemed pretty useless to me. Not sure how to rectify it, or if you need to rectify it. Just something I noticed.

Also, there's a path that, as you're attacking, feeds right into the right side of the final point. It was pretty easy to run from the doorway at the end of the path to the point. A spawn door was right there, but it didn't seem very helpful. Again, maybe not necessarily a bad thing, but it seemed like an un-guardable point of attack.

Sorry for the vagueness of my location descriptions. Overall, I had a great time on it!

[Will T.]

Well, it's been a few days, and I've gotten a few changes in based on last week's test. Among the changes this time around:

-Made capture zones larger at mid and final points
-Replaced some low fences with tall ones, and added tall fences in places where the map formerly ran right up to the skybox
-Detailed out the sheds near the final points
-Added paint swatches underneath all health and ammo
--No more wondering where health and ammo spawns are located! These paint swatches are actually standard practice in Valve's maps. I don't remember why I didn't have them already, as they're quite important...
-Textured the building at mid
--These textures are placeholder, and more detail will be added to the building when it comes time to detail the map.
-Added arrows throughout the map pointing toward mid, to aid in navigation
-Added team-specific overlays inside the building at mid to aid in navigation
-Added small ammo pickups to the balconies inside the building at mid
-Added death pits near mid
--By popular request.
-Removed all railings at mid in order to improve navigation/flow
-Raised ceilings in the forward buildings near mid
-Opened up the interiors of the buildings between the forward and final points, and created a hole through which explosive-jumping classes can reach the second floor and anyone can drop to the first floor
-Added a new doorway to each base near mid
-Changed ammo pickups near said doorways from medium to full
-Removed the middle walls in the forward buildings
-Changed all brush-based doorways to match the thickness of the prop-based doorways in the map

Have a run around and see what you think!

Download here!

[Zork Nemesis]

Ran the new version, here's my commentary, though it's not much.

I do like the interior changes to the buildings between 1 and 2, and 2 and 3. The claustrophobia is mostly gone and now it feels a lot better, not to mention the removal of all the handrails making it much easier to traverse the area around point 3. The additional hole in the floor in the 1/2 building also makes it quicker for a scout to get across the high road since he can double jump the gap.

Some thoughts
-When I was jumping around the middle, I thought of something worth testing. I wonder how it would go if you opened up the roof of the middle point and allowed explosive jumping classes to get up there. The building might be a little big for that but I think it would be worth looking into. Maybe open the rooftops of the side buildings as well for the same reason, but don't put holes in those. Playtesters will inevitably try doing this anyway so maybe it's something to try.
-When you get to the detail stage, there's some missing textures that were the result of your carving out the 2/3 interior building; anyone who can jump higher than a scout's double jump can see it:

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-Furthermore, and I know you're not to detail just yet, the death pit also allows you to see through most of the map as it is now.
-I gave it some thought, the bridges you have extending over the side routes between 1/2, maybe you could add an additional interior ramp to get up there. It would add a height advantage for defending that particular flank and open up a potential sentry position or an out-of-the-way place for an enemy engy to set up shop.
-Personally, I still think the outdoor spaces at caps 1 and 2 are too small and close-quartered. Not the caps themselves but the areas around them. You've done a great job opening the rest of the map but these particular areas are still very cramped and congested. I would almost go as far as simply picking up the block that the cap rests on and moving it and everything behind it back a few yards just to add some space to run around.
-I would still like to see a supply cabinet in the forward spawns to facilitate loadout changes before exiting spawn. You don't need to let people back in, but it would be nice to not have to self-destruct to swap a gun. I know there's an option to auto-respawn on loadout changes, but I don't use it. Some community maps do have this kind of thing, there are resupply cabinets in Coldfront and Freight's forward spawns despite those spawns having one-way exits; even Well has them (though Well's spawns initially weren't one-way).

[Will T.]

I don't know how I didn't spot those missing textures in the forward buildings. Looking at them in Hammer, they really stood out. Gotta hate those little errors...

'Nother update today. This one isn't a full version update, so it's called a5a instead of a6. Mostly it addresses a few visual-communication issues with telling the player at a glance which areas of the map are not accessible (i.e. rooftops), as well as the above-mentioned missing textures. One major change, however, is an extra door on the side route between the forward and final points. This new door connects to the spiral stair between the two interior levels, and is designed to hopefully make the side route more useful since it was formerly a low-traffic area of the map. I do foresee a possible issue with it as it allows the attackers to possibly fairly easily come at the forward point from behind, but we'll see in testing how it works out.

Full changelog:

-Increased the exterior height of the side buildings at mid
-Added a placeholder structure to the top of the cap building at mid
--This, like the mid building itself, will be changed significantly when actual detailing is done.
-Changed the middle entrances to the bases at mid so that the roof begins at the same height as it does on the rest of the building
--Previously it started a bit lower here than the rest of the roof. It looked a little weird IMO.
-Removed the inaccessible bridges in the alley between the forward and final points
--The more I tried explosive-jumping through this corridor, the more annoying the player-clipping on these became. I'll probably put something different in there in roughly the same positions as before, but that will come later. For now, the corridors are completely open.

Download here.

[Zork Nemesis]

Definitely like the central building rooftops, but now it looks even more like you can get up there, given that it actually looks like an observation deck of sorts. Even if you don't open up the middle point to death-from-above up there, I do think you should allow jumpers up there to give them a helping hand in controlling the middle, though again that should be tested before you go with it. Since as it currently sits you can't get to the other side so easily (well you can, but it takes a bit longer than if it were just open and flat, a single soldier or demo up there won't have enough mobility to keep both sides under control himself. There's also a lack of recovery and a smidge of fall damage during dismount so there's some risk going up there too.

If you do that though, I would also suggest adding a nobuild brush up there too. Rockets and Stickies are one thing, but if someone wrangler jumps a sentry/teleporter up there, I fear there wouldn't be any way to stop it due to the angle.

Not much more for suggestions though, you've handled everything pretty well so far.