TF2/source games broken...help?

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Re: TF2/source games broken...help?

Post by bluntspoon » Sun May 23, 2010 12:46 pm

Dirty Dan wrote:If you're running out of things to try you could run driver sweeper, which does a more thorough wiping of your drivers, then reinstall.
Tried this, and didn't work. Thanks thou.

Just for grins I ran furmark at 1280x1024 and 16x msaa for 10 mins to stress the card. It chugged along at 10fps and hit 95 degrees but there was no artifacing or any visual problems I could discern. This has convinced me there is no hardware issue here. It's software. And it's making me mad. :evil:
Last edited by bluntspoon on Sun May 23, 2010 1:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: TF2/source games broken...help?

Post by Boss Llama » Sun May 23, 2010 1:11 pm

Hmm, based on a suggestion on another tech thread here, have you tried running TF2 in a window? Perhaps the mode switch is messing with something.
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Re: TF2/source games broken...help?

Post by bluntspoon » Sun May 23, 2010 1:15 pm

Tried the -window command, didn't work.

Anything else? lol
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Re: TF2/source games broken...help?

Post by bluntspoon » Sun May 23, 2010 2:50 pm

Dropped to 800x600 and that didn't work either. I'm pretty much out of ideas. I'll reinstall Windows I guess but I'm not hopeful. At this point I'm ready to just walk away.
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Re: TF2/source games broken...help?

Post by Boss Llama » Sun May 23, 2010 6:11 pm

Hmm, I'm sure there is a solution to this somewhere out there. The more bizare the problem, the simpler the solution usually is. Hang in there, we'll sort it out!
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Re: TF2/source games broken...help?

Post by dredfox » Mon May 24, 2010 9:46 am

begin massive wall of text.... processing.... processing....

The consensus online seems to be that the NVidia uninstaller leaves behind several old version of the driver that cause this conflict.

I read this in one forum. (I've edited the post for clarity.)
http://social.technet.microsoft.com/Forums/en/itprovistahardware/thread/fd499e81-63d9-4ebf-8dcb-4eca24007afc wrote:

1) Go to your device manager and check the date and version of your nvlddmkm.sys file and jot it down.

2) Search your system for files named "nvlddmkm.sy_"

3) If any of those files are newer than the date of your current file, then you are a candidate for this solution. If not... STOP RIGHT HERE, you ARE NOT a candidate for it.

4) Go to your "Windows/System32/drivers" directory and locate the nvlddmkm.sys file.

5) Rename the file to: nvlddmkm.sys.old

6) Now, from the search you did in step 2 above, copy the "nvlddmkm.sy_" file that most matches your system to the "Windows/System32" directory.

7) Click on your start icon, and in the "Start Search" box, type "cmd", and notice the start menu will show you the "cmd.exe" file in the box above the search field.

8) Right-click the "cmd.exe" program and select, "Run as Administrator", and again tell Windows this is something you really wanted to do!

9) Within the command shell window, navigate to "Windows\System32" if you aren't already there.

10) Type the following command:

expand nvlddmkm.sy_ nvlddmkm.sys

11) It should report back to you that it did something. If it reported the file could not be written, go back to step 8, you didn't *really* tell Windows you were administrator

12) In the command shell window, type "exit" and press enter to close the window.

13) In your file explorer (Windows Explorer), navigate to the "Windows/System32" directory and move the "nvlddmkm.sys" file to the "Windows/System32/drivers" directory.

14) Restart your computer.
Another person with a similar problem had this advice.
http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showtopic=38941 wrote:
I went to the control panel and open up the programs list, where you can uninstall and install progs. I uninstalled my forceware drivers. Now I did NOT restart when it prompted me to.

Next, I did an advanced search on my C:\ drive (or whatever drive contains Vista) and I searched for the driver, "nvlddmkm". Make sure you checked the box where it asks if you want to search hidden files and such.
Several files with that name came up in the search. There were about 8-12 files. They are located in several different places. Many of the files end in ".sy_" and the other few will of course end in ".sys".

Of course some of these files are still being used by Vista because they are the RTM drivers that shipped with Vista. The files that can be deleted, should be deleted. At least this is what I did. I got rid of the nvlddmkm.sys file that seemed to be left over from the uninstall. (Now I know what you are thinking, and let me say that that .sys file that I just mentioned WAS still there even after I restarted to complete the driver uninstall process. The bum file wont go away on its own.)
You can also look at the dates on those files and see exactly which ones are the alleged culprits, because of the recent dates that should appear. Once those were trashed and deleted.

I then deleted all my unpacked driver installation files that I still had on my computer. (Note: Some of those ".sy_" files were located in those installation folders as well, but I got rid of them anyways to be thorough.)

Once I did all of that, I downloaded a fresh copy of the 100.54 forceware drivers.
Once it was on my computer, I went to the properties of My Computer and opened up the Device Manager and then completely uninstalled my video card. I restarted and let Vista install its basic drivers, then I installed those 100.54 drivers I dl'ed and then of course restarted again.
Just for reference, here's the Microsoft Knowlegebase info on Event ID 4101. It seems to agree that the driver needs to be replaced. Windows Vista and 7 both keep multiple copies of drivers in various places; it is entirely possible that one of these is being reinstalled without your knowledge.

One more suggestion, a long shot at that. Test your memory. If you have a very small section of your memory permanently damaged it could produce this error. Drivers are often loaded into the same blocks of memory each boot. If that is the case, then a single bad bit could be corrupting an instruction that Source (and only Source,) relies on. This is not entirely far fetched; Source has a lot of dormant OpenGL code even on the Windows release. It stands to reason that it may use features of DirectX and the display driver that few other games use.

I hope this helps. I wish I could do more that Google-fu to help you out here.

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Re: TF2/source games broken...help?

Post by bluntspoon » Mon May 24, 2010 7:12 pm

Thanks dred!

I'll get on this stuff.

...Didn't work for either.

:cry:
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Re: TF2/source games broken...help?

Post by dredfox » Mon May 24, 2010 11:12 pm

The last thing I can think of is to disable UAC and DEP.

UAC could be pausing the driver, causing it to stall and DEP could be preventing it from executing its own code in some places. In my experience, with Vista these two features caused more bluescreens than anything else on otherwise stable systems. Keep in mind that disabling these will make your system far less secure.

UAC
http://www.howtogeek.com/howto/windows- ... ows-vista/

DEP
http://www.mydigitallife.info/2007/01/1 ... ows-vista/

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Re: TF2/source games broken...help?

Post by bluntspoon » Wed May 26, 2010 11:57 pm

Tentatively, very tentatively, I want to say I've fixed this.

I tried Dred's last advice. No dice. boo.

I then ran accross a post about the TdrDelay function. This is the code that decides when to show the error message "Display device was not responding and has recovered" The default time is 3 seconds. I changed it to 8. Played probably tonight for about 45 minutes with no problems.

We'll see. I'm hopeful.

Like to say a big thanks to Alizee and Dred for helping me run some things out.
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Re: TF2/source games broken...help?

Post by Boss Llama » Thu May 27, 2010 12:29 pm

Gah! Like I said, the more bizare the problem, the simpler the solution.

I didn't even realize that time was adjustable :-P Glad to hear you're tenatively back in business!
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Re: TF2/source games broken...help?

Post by bluntspoon » Thu May 27, 2010 8:09 pm

Bugger.

Back to insta crash. Worse than before. Crashes upon entering character screen. Wow. Bummer.

All I have left is to go back to xp.

:x
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Re: TF2/source games broken...help?

Post by metacide » Fri May 28, 2010 1:18 pm

I only skimmed the awesome help that Dred and Alizee posted. Have you tried a complete steam reinstall? This probably wont help, but it might be worth a shot.
You said you changed the TdrDelay to 8 seconds... did this change back automatically? Have you checked that?

Have you nominated either Alizee or Dred for PotM? For all that research they probably deserve it :D

Also I found this:
What is happening in the game is that your large memory footprint of your graphics card is mapped into the game. Typically this is when your settings are high, because it uses the most memory, which would explain why the game is playable when you use minimal settings. Because your particular graphic card setup uses nearly 2 gig of RAM itself, you quickly force the game to run out of memory space that is addressable.

To fix this, you may be able to play at reduced settings. Lowering your resolution is typically the best way to restrict memory usage, since it exponentially increases RAM use when you increase resolution. You will likely have to play around with various settings. You can open up Task Manager and monitor your WoW game's usage of memory to see where the sweet spot is on keeping your memory under control.
However you said that it happens even when you use minimal settings, so perhaps something else is using up your memory before you even launch TF2? Is that a possibility?
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Re: TF2/source games broken...help?

Post by dredfox » Sat May 29, 2010 3:51 am

metacide wrote:
Also I found this:
What is happening in the game is that your large memory footprint of your graphics card is mapped into the game. Typically this is when your settings are high, because it uses the most memory, which would explain why the game is playable when you use minimal settings. Because your particular graphic card setup uses nearly 2 gig of RAM itself, you quickly force the game to run out of memory space that is addressable.

To fix this, you may be able to play at reduced settings. Lowering your resolution is typically the best way to restrict memory usage, since it exponentially increases RAM use when you increase resolution. You will likely have to play around with various settings. You can open up Task Manager and monitor your WoW game's usage of memory to see where the sweet spot is on keeping your memory under control.
However you said that it happens even when you use minimal settings, so perhaps something else is using up your memory before you even launch TF2? Is that a possibility?
I can't quite make sense of that post. The 64-bit OS should be able to address all RAM and VRAM without an issue. If the 32-bit program is internally addressing all the VRAM before RAM, then it should still be able to address at least a gigabyte of RAM. If the program is running out of memory, then it should crash, not the driver. I can't help but feel that I'm missing something completely logical here. I wish I had a crash dump to debug or something. This problem seems to lie within the interaction between Source and the driver.

EDIT: I just reread the original post. The OS is 32-bit. What model video card is being used, and how much RAM is installed on the card and in the motherboard?
This particular issue was common back in the Vista 32-bit days. So most of the information I'm digging up is from that time when Vista broke down regularly before SP1.

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Re: TF2/source games broken...help?

Post by bluntspoon » Sat May 29, 2010 8:07 am

I have an 8800gt and 4 gig of ram.

More than happy to get a crash dump to you...if I can. I'll look up how to do that and get back to you.

Thanks.
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Re: TF2/source games broken...help?

Post by bluntspoon » Sat May 29, 2010 9:14 am

Loading Dump File [C:\Users\mike\Desktop\crash\hl2_4127_crash_2010_4_17T4_2_36C0.mdmp]
User Mini Dump File: Only registers, stack and portions of memory are available

Comment: 'Crash: Map: cp_warpath2
Game: g:\program files\steam\steamapps\bluntspoon\team fortress 2\tf
Build: 4127
Misc: skill:1 rate 20000 update 33 cmd 30 latency 75 msec
Net: 63.210.145.203:27015
cmdline:"g:\program files\steam\steamapps\bluntspoon\team fortress 2\hl2.exe" -game tf -steam -width 1280 -height 1024 -novid -mat_monitorgamma 1.7 -novid -dxlevel 95
driver: Driver Name: NVIDIA GeForce 8800 GT
Driver Version: 8.15.11.8585
VendorId / DeviceId: 0x10de / 0x611
SubSystem / Rev: 0x80101462 / 0xa2
DXLevel: UNKNOWN
Vid: 1280 x 1024
video: picmip: 0 forceansio: 1 trilinear: 1 antialias: 1 vsync: 0 rootlod: 0 reducefillrate: 0
shadowrendertotexture: 1 r_flashlightdepthtexture 1 waterforceexpensive: 1 waterforcereflectentities: 0 mat_motion_blur_enabled: 0 mat_queue_mode -1
OS: (Build 7600) version 6.1
prev PP PAGES: used: 0, free 0
final PP PAGES: used: 0, free 0
memalloc = 0
'
Symbol search path is: *** Invalid ***
****************************************************************************
* Symbol loading may be unreliable without a symbol search path. *
* Use .symfix to have the debugger choose a symbol path. *
* After setting your symbol path, use .reload to refresh symbol locations. *
****************************************************************************
Executable search path is:
Windows 7 Version 7600 MP (2 procs) Free x86 compatible
Product: WinNt, suite: SingleUserTS
Machine Name:
Debug session time: Fri Apr 16 21:02:38.000 2010 (UTC - 7:00)
System Uptime: not available
Process Uptime: 0 days 0:02:53.000
................................................................
................................................................
.................
This dump file has an exception of interest stored in it.
The stored exception information can be accessed via .ecxr.
(c8.998): Access violation - code c0000005 (first/second chance not available)
eax=fffffffd ebx=00000000 ecx=0012c6d8 edx=76e564f4 esi=020561e1 edi=0000082c
eip=76e564f4 esp=0012c434 ebp=0012c444 iopl=0 nv up ei pl zr na pe nc
cs=001b ss=0023 ds=0023 es=0023 fs=003b gs=0000 efl=00000246
*** ERROR: Symbol file could not be found. Defaulted to export symbols for ntdll.dll -
ntdll!KiFastSystemCallRet:
76e564f4 c3 ret


This is the most recent mini dump from steam that I have. It's not creating any from the crashes I currently have. The cmdline is not accurate. The on ly thing I have in now is -novid and -dxlevel 81. I have completely reinstalled both steam and tf2 since this point, but maybe the error message at the end will be helpful.

I'm looking for a windows level crash dump now.
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