The Sandman Debate

[Guardian]

Ok I've seen a lot of talk about the sandman and more specifically it's stun and decided to make it's own thread about the issue because it's so hot.

Personally I'm indifferent and could care less if it was nerfed or not but what are your takes on this new scout toy?

Edit: After some debate I might post a poll.

[Infusions]

I don't mind the stun. There are only a few things I would want changed to the Sandman:

- Nerfed hitbox (At the moment, it's more generous than the pipe bomb hitbox)
- Doesn't stun ubers, but rather, can knock people back. Maybe causing them to abruptly change in direction to screw with some people's aim.
- Stun time slightly lowered.

The stun time is because in Desert Fortress, I got hit by a baseball I assume was from the farthest distance. I was stunned for around 8 seconds. Enough time for the Scout to run that distance and kill me.

At the same time, Nick's post made me think about the stun effect causing teammates have to physically protect you (Granted you aren't outnumbered to begin with, in which case, just run) if you were stunned. Not in the same way as protecting a Medic either because Medics still have the ability to flee or fight. It almost gives TF2 a weird L4D feeling, as if your teammate is almost NEEDED from time to time.

While I wouldn't want TF2 to work like L4D entirely, I still want the ability to be on my own from time to time and not have to hold my teammate's hand, the idea of having your Soldier buddy stunned and you have to leap in front of him and fight the Scout while he recovers certainly does sound interesting.

[shimmybot]

[quote="Infusions";p="156651"]
The stun time is because in Desert Fortress, I got hit by a baseball I assume was from the farthest distance. I was stunned for around 8 seconds. Enough time for the Scout to run that distance and kill me.

At the same time, Nick's post made me think about the stun effect causing teammates have to physically protect you (Granted you aren't outnumbered to begin with, in which case, just run) if you were stunned. Not in the same way as protecting a Medic either because Medics still have the ability to flee or fight. It almost gives TF2 a weird L4D feeling, as if your teammate is almost NEEDED from time to time.

While I wouldn't want TF2 to work like L4D entirely, I still want the ability to be on my own from time to time and not have to hold my teammate's hand, the idea of having your Soldier buddy stunned and you have to leap in front of him and fight the Scout while he recovers certainly does sound interesting.
[/quote]

All I have to say about this is it's Team Fortress, not "You and a bunch of other guys have to raid the enemy's base"

[shimmybot]

Also; I add yes, the sandman IS annoying, but the scout however is an annoying class fits perfectly

[Infusions]

[quote="shimmybot";p="156653"]All I have to say about this is it's Team Fortress, not "You and a bunch of other guys have to raid the enemy's base"[/quote]

While I'm not saying to abandon your team completely, there are, in fact, going to be times when I work by myself and not wait until my entire team is ready to charge to do something.

Spies, for the most part, are almost always by themselves. Their actions can help aid the team though, which is where the TEAM title can still take effect without you having to physically be with them.

Same thing with suicidal charges. Some people suicide charge to help aid the team, whether it's to get a Medic so you prevent them from getting an uber and cut off their health supply or just to push the enemy back a little bit longer. In most suicide charges, you're by yourself, but your actions can aid the team.

Just because the game is called Team Fortress 2 doesn't mean you have to be with your teammate all the time in order to help the team.

[shimmybot]

Ah i see what you mean, i miss read what you meant, my apologies

[itchy]

I have mixed feelings about it. I still think that just stopping the ability to shoot would have been better than outright stun. That way, even if you stunned an uber, it could still be effective as a sentry distraction, or whatever. As it stands though, it does make medics play a little differently, which isn't necessarily a bad thing - if your uber target gets stunned, it's probably wise to start ubering someone else, rather than just sitting there.

I kind of agree with the "it makes your team protect you" idea, but that doesn't really factor in Snipers. The only way to really protect a stunned teammate from a Sniper is to (a) out-snipe him, or (b) jump in the way of the bullet, likely letting yourself die.

I think much like a lot of stuff that seems overpowered at first, it'll take time to be able to say.

[Devastator]

Now i hate more those little brats

[Rigges]

Ummm bonk Yea I hate getting hit by that dang ball and it has really changed TF2 a lot to the point I almost do not want to play.

But I will wait and see if the novelty wears off.

Kind of like the flare gun did that really Pissed me off


OK well my 2 cents






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[Thorn]

I think the main problem for most people is that it disrupts many current strategies that we have all been developing over a long period of time.

This update I think changes the dynamics of the game, we shouldn't be afraid of it, in fact I like it when valve mixes it up so that players are forced to find new ways to deal with new situations.

I think it was Nick Mame who is on to something when he said that this new stun is going to favor the team that protects their teammates when they become stunned.

another example is using the stun target as bait, if your team stuns someone, what is your first reaction? "omgz! KILL THE STUN'D GUY!!!" I know that was my first instinct when I started playing around with the sandman, and it was only recently that I find myself walking into death traps with the opponent's team mates waiting for me to come in and try to finish the job.

I would say give it some time, let players adapt to the new dynamic, soon enough I am sure players will find better ways to deal with it.

[Plinko]

Since this is the debate repository, something occurred to me just now. It's important to realize that CEVO is 6v6, so a 5+second stun of an ubercharge when you've only got 6 players in the field is a world different than what we see in a 12v12 environment. Naturally the more players out there, the less impact a temporary stun on the team as a whole.

[dredfox]

[quote="Thorn";p="156723"]I think the main problem for most people is that it disrupts many current strategies that we have all been developing over a long period of time.

This update I think changes the dynamics of the game, we shouldn't be afraid of it, in fact I like it when valve mixes it up so that players are forced to find new ways to deal with new situations.

I think it was Nick Mame who is on to something when he said that this new stun is going to favor the team that protects their teammates when they become stunned.

another example is using the stun target as bait, if your team stuns someone, what is your first reaction? "omgz! KILL THE STUN'D GUY!!!" I know that was my first instinct when I started playing around with the sandman, and it was only recently that I find myself walking into death traps with the opponent's team mates waiting for me to come in and try to finish the job.

I would say give it some time, let players adapt to the new dynamic, soon enough I am sure players will find better ways to deal with it.[/quote]

Part of the problem is that this raises the bar for player skill. A good player on a lazy team used to be able to play reasonably well with or without the support of his team. Now, that same situation will result in frustration.
Advanced coordination and teamwork has become a basic skill. Try and get a bait and switch tactic working on a team with 2/12 players talking to one another. Heck, I have enough trouble getting pyros to take an uber and charge.

"Get up there I'll uber you. C'mon charge! GO GO GO! Nevermind you're dead now"

I hate to sound like a prophet of doom, but if Valve continues in this direction, they will make TF2 a great tournament game at the expense of casual players. This direction does not mesh well with achievements required to unlock weapons. I think the TF2 devs are throwing together updates without any overall direction.

Now if you all don't mind, I'm gonna sing the doom song...
Doom doom doom dee doom dee doom

[Thorn]

[quote="dredfox";p="156863"]
Try and get a bait and switch tactic working on a team with 2/12 players talking to one another. Heck, I have enough trouble getting pyros to take an uber and charge.
[/quote]

You know, you do have a point there. I find it hard just to get people to "go forward" let alone coordinate stun shenanigans.

Shouldn't the best coordinated team win tho? isn't that the point of the game?

[quote="Plinko";p="156838"]Since this is the debate repository, something occurred to me just now. It's important to realize that CEVO is 6v6, so a 5+second stun of an ubercharge when you've only got 6 players in the field is a world different than what we see in a 12v12 environment. Naturally the more players out there, the less impact a temporary stun on the team as a whole.[/quote]

I agree, the fewer the players the greater the impact. It is probably too strong in a 6v6 environment, but who knows.

I think this update tho should lead to a more diverse team selection when it comes to classes that are viable. The heavy + medic combo is deflating in power. I have a feeling this update will be tweaked for sure, just not quite sure how yet.

[Clay Pigeon]

I think it should require a headshot to stun.

[BETTEH]

[quote="Yahoo!!";p="156582"]
The piece I want to elaborate on is the risk/reward for the uber and the baseball. The baseball takes 20 seconds to regenerate or another baseball can be found. Upon dying the baseball is automatically regenerated. An uber takes 2 minutes to build up. It requires continuous healing of hurt targets. Dying however, removes the uber completely. The charge is gone and has to built from scratch again. Suddenly, this easily obtained baseball has the power to completely disable the uber? There is a disconnect here. Valve needs to realize this. Losing double jump to easily stop ubers is not a good trade-off. If you want my opinion, if you want to stun ubers.. then you should lose your ability to fire a gun.
[/quote]