steam update

[Plinko]

Is the change list truncated? I don't see any change to damage fall-off, or was this done in another update?

I will keep using the backburner or regular flamethrower situationally with or without the health bonus, the difference in time to kill an opponent I do manage to sneak up on is substantial for the BB vs. regular. If I will be face-up with enemies or seeing lots of ubers, regular it is.

What does tick me off is the health bonus really allowed me to destroy sentry guns, I was able to take on a level 2 sentry pretty easily as long as I didn't have to approach it from much of a distance and I could freely circle it. Heck, that might be part of the reason they got rid of it.

[Nick Mame]

The fall-off change was a couple of patches ago. It's been there for a few weeks now.

The original pyro update removed all damage fall-off so the tip of the flame did as much damage as point-blank range. A later patch added it back in with a smaller damage reduction. So after both patches, the flamethrower still has fall-off but it does more of its full damage from a distance than it did before.

[Supreveio]

I wanted to be able to use the Backburner for the crits, but you have to be so goddamn exact with your aiming that you're probably better off playing Spy.

[Reipin]

[quote="Portland_BEER";p="111095"][quote="Reipin";p="111092"]

Failed pyro update is full of fail.

[/quote]

I don't think so... the axe is awesome for defending CP's and the airblast has added an entire new element to play.

and the damn flare gun is the bane of snipers everywhere.

Look at medic update. Most medics don't use the kritz and opt for Uber instead.. so does that = fail?[/quote]

The Pyro was an underpowered class before the update. It was good for spy checking and uh...ubering against a sentry.

My view may be skewed but I started playing this game as a pyro and when I realized how much soldiers owned me, even when I "ambushed" (Read: tapped him on the shoulder and held up my gib me sign) him from behind getting point blank with the flamethrower I would still die. This has nothign to do with the juggling that goes on and so forth.

Now I play a heavy and before the update the easiest point was a pyro. They needed to come stand at point blank range of my minigun and even if they came up behind on me i could laugh their damage off, turn, spin my gun, and kill them. That's right, spin up my gun. While I am on fire. At point blank range. And if not win, kill the pyro and then die.

The medic was far from useless nefore his update, he just wasn't played enough. valve aimed to get his play numbers up and they did.

They also didn't remove anything from the medic update after they had given it to them.

To adress the pyros flaws they were given no fall off damage, because lets be honest, there fall off is is 100% after x amount of yards. their primary goes from full to nothing in just a few yards.

People cried, it got removed.

They were given the AB which has mainly been underused to this point.

They got the backburner with the +50 health and crits at some absurd angle from behind. +50 health is gone due to crying.

The fact of the matter is that I don't think ANYONE really had problems with a pyro running straight at you with a BB, cause they fell victim to the same thing all pyros before the update fell victim to. All other weapons with range. 50 health wasn't going to make you invincible, even with overhealing. I still mowed down those types of pyros.

It was useful when you played sneaky and managed to close in on the enemy from behind. if you got noticed at the last second you were able to push through adn do some damage. If the horrible hit detection failed you and no crits came out cause you weren't directly behind the only afk player on the team, you could still do some damage.

They basically just allowed you to play as pre-buff pyro. That's fail. The kritz can at least be used on defense. Lord knows what the BB will be used for as you are being juggled all day.

Come play on TV4 where lots of good people play and let me know how the BB works out and tell me it doesn't need the health or something. Crits from behind on a mini angle just is not going to cut it when you are talking about the ability to stop ubers and knock people off cap points witht he regular FT.

[TTHREAZ]

I agree with Reipin on this one. Airblast (+) and ammo loss (-) and health (=) is much more attractive now than Crits (+) and health (=). The crit percentage isn't that consistent so the extra health helped when you charged into groups. Hell, I broke my pyro records for kills and points with the BB simply because I was charging at or coming up behind people. With the health gone, I've switched to the AB. Oh well.

[Tarrock]

Well I do believe it's time to complain about the BB's hitbox in the steam forums now.

[TTHREAZ]

Oh, they have been for quite some time.

[Torven]

The pyro is not supposed to be able to charge at groups of heavies and soldiers and expect to do well. I wouldn't mind them expanding the attack angle a bit, but people have to remember that the pyro is not just a smaller, faster heavy. You can't take out the other team's front line, but once your teammates do, you can tear through their supporting players like a tornado.

I haven't been a fan of the pyro in TF2, but I played it extensively in TF and TFC, and even though they upped the damage and took away the range of the pyro, I think the same philosophy still applies: First line defense, second line offense. You can kill classes lighter than you with little problem, but with heavier classes, your job isn't to kill them; it is to hurt them.

On defense, that means lighting people up and retreating around a corner so they are 50 health down by the time they reach your the second line. Taking out a medic means 5% overheal loss per second (in the 10 seconds of afterburn, an overhealed heavy loses 50 health to fire and up to another 75 from OH bleedoff). If you are lucky, you may even get a second crack at them after they think you have run away

On offense, it means forcing the defenders to retreat to a dispenser or bring their medics out from cover. You really have to coordinate with your team, as well. Don't try to take people out on your own; the defenders cannot field as many people on the front line as the attackers, so take advantage of your numbers. Use your speed to jump into fights in progress. If people regularly switch their attention to you, hook up with a spy and get the other side to turn expose their backs to him.

[Thorn]

Another thing I think valve was doing with the Pyro AB was to make undercharges less attractive. We have all experienced using an uber to "break enemies lines" and all that happened was we were tossed in the air and could do anything.

Keep in mind that these class changes interact with one another too. the addition of the airblast was probably not only to make the pyro class more interesting, but also make the medic's kritzkrieg more attractive against a team of AB pyros.

[Supreveio]

Just don't kritcharge a Soldier or Demoman

[Thorn]

[quote="Super Steveio";p="111156"]
Just don't kritcharge a Soldier or Demoman
[/quote]

i suppose the both have their dangers lol, but seeing as how i have only once in my life see a crit rocks kill someone other than its intended target due to AB, I think it has positive expected value

[Reipin]

That's my point though torven, I still didn't have a problem with BB pyros playign Heavy, cause they still weren't. Charging BB pyros were fodder just as much as pyros pre-buff imo.

As for using the KK over the uber... KK does nothing to break a sentry farm. I have yet to find a real use for KK on offense but I can definitely have fun with it on defense. It would be nice if they added something like 60 or 65% overheal with 10 second drop off for the KK.

[Thorn]

[quote="Reipin";p="111163"]
As for using the KK over the uber... KK does nothing to break a sentry farm. I have yet to find a real use for KK on offense but I can definitely have fun with it on defense. It would be nice if they added something like 60 or 65% overheal with 10 second drop off for the KK.
[/quote]

Yeah, I guess the way I think about it, adding AB to pyros made uber charges less effective, and that may have some effect on the use of its alternative, the KK.

[TheCarpe]

The Pyro is a class that requires skill and situational thinking. You're a damn good Heavy, Reipin, but I've left more Heavies than I can count smoldering and chopped on the ground. A halfway decent Pyro who gets the first hit on an unaware Heavy can most definitely take him down.

The airblast is useful but, again, requires much skill. Having the reflexes and foresight to know when to use it is a skill in and of itself, aiming on top of that is another. Torven will recall me yesterday totally neutering an uber by standing underneath an uber Demo and simply juggling him higher and higher into the air before the uber wore off and he fell ass-first on my flamethrower.

The Pyro is not an underpowered class, he's quite dangerous in skilled hands. Such can be said for any class. Your view may simply be thrown off by the fact that your primary class is the hardest for a Pyro to fell.

[Reipin]

Maybe, I think I mentioned that in my post above. I still don't see how the 50 health made a BB pyro overpowered. It's not like they couldnt still be juggled or stopped by stickies or as if they had a 180 degree backburn.

I guess what I'm saying is, the 50 health nerf was unnecessary, especially given what the BB pyro is now.