CTF_avantiville ??

[EzCrash]

Just curious as to why this map was changed to a CTF type map.

I just played it and it seems even more difficult for the blue team to win since now only the player with the intel can capture the point and he has to move at a snail's pace.

Also, one of the roof tops has the wrong texture. It is one between the 1st and 2nd cap point. It has a wall texture with windows on it.

Anyway, I can't say I like the CTF style of play for this map.

So, l3eeron, what gives ?

[l3eeron]

Experimenting....

avanti was ctf in TFC... my original goal was to reproduce the gameplay from TFC's avanti...

The reduced speed for the flag carrier is to promote team play, your teammates are supposed to protect you as you crawl along.

How many ctf maps are out there? How many reverse ctf maps are out there? Just trying to add some diversity.

I know about the texture on the roof.... (lol sorry! Ill fix it!)

It's supposed to be hard for blue, other wise it would be boring, but, I am still working on making it more balanced. Ive been on blue when Red got completely rolled, and Ive been on blu when red was impenetrable.

The problem is... people never charge up for uber once it gets to CP4, everyone runs into the church full of sgs one by one and wonders why they cant win. Ive seen it happen alot. Blue spends 10 minutes trying to win without coordinating a rush. We'll get to CP4 with lots of time, then the team just goes guerilla, no one waits down by spawn to build uber. I think it just needs time for people to learn how to win the map. Its no different than any other attack/defend map. Defenders rack up stats while blue cries all the way home... that's what makes it a fun challenge. Tell me, on maps like dustbowl, do you win very often without rushing an uber first? hell no... same for my map.

[Stevo]

I think it's actually easier for Blue to win using teamwork. Instead of having to stand on a point for a few seconds, the flag carrier just has to touch it. As long as you keep the flag from resetting you can keep it moving forward. As long as the team does what they can to protect the person with the flag, they can keep it moving. The flag even helps give the team something to focus on and coordinate their attack. Anyway, it's how the original was and I like it.

[EzCrash]

Thanks for the explination bro.

I'll try to keep an open mind with it and give it some time to wear on me.

[l3eeron]

I appreciate the feedback...

and would much rather you ask about stuff!

[KazeSim]

Love the map, maybe increasing the defending team spawn time can help. So easy to get back to the front line defend the first point. Overall one of my favorite maps though. =) Love the low number melee rounds.

[mr_s]

yeah... Its much better than CP.

As for the texture, leave it its funny.

Havent as yet played blue team though.

cheers

[Savant]

I think one of the reasons blue can have such a hard time with the map is since the original design was made back in the days before teleporters, and it was balanced with that in mind. When teleporters were added, assault/defend maps became a lot harder for the assaulting team since the defenders can get back to the front line so fast.

Some other observations:

-On the original map the movement speed was faster for players, or the actual distance was shorter. (hard to tell which) I just tested it now with a soldier, and it took an extra 5 seconds to run from the spawn point to cap 1.
-Blue has to cross their entrace (closest to where they spawn) and it is just pure spam from soldiers, demos and snipers. I was in one game a while back where 3 snipers were literally keeping blue from advancing since they were killing half the team as they spawned, and the other half had to deal with heavies and pyros sitting outside the other door. There is no 'safe' path for blue to get to the far exit from their spawn. It reminds me of Hunted, the big long ramp in the parking garage which was a sniper/spam issue, and so they installed an overhang and put in a sentry turret so that they could at least leave spawn without dying.
-There are a lot of 'roof' or upper areas where people can get to now that they never used to be able to get to before. While some may have been removed/fixed, there are still some that remain. While this has made it better for the defense, there is no benefit for the offense - it's that much harder. At cap 2 there is a roof area, and at cap 3 there is a roof area across from the cap point that overlooks the only two entry points for blue, and it even has a health pack! Talk about spam central.
-The area between cap 2 and cap 3 is much more open than on the original Avanti. For example, you could never stand on the spawn side of the church (red) and have a wide open view of the archway where blue comes through from point 2. From the blue side, when you go through that arch on Avanti you can barely see the edge of the wall for cap 3, and it was always an obstructed view for snipers, you could see a bit of the opening, but never all of it at once. Open view = good for defense.

While I don't think this map was intentionally made harder for blue, it is a harder game for blue to play against a team that has any decent players on it. (IMHO anyway)

[mr_s]

well, keep in mind B isn't a professional mapper... He did it himself, whereas maps like Hydro are done by people with years of experience and a LOT of testers..


ones again, great job B.

[l3eeron]

First I want to tell you, I appreciate the priceless feedback Savant. Its replies like these that will eventually bring us to a great balanced map.

As it is, the map is a little too defender friendly, I'm noticing the same things....


The first set up was too chokey, this one is a bit too open, especially in the cp3 area.

I plan on adjusting the spawn waves so blue spawns a tiny bit faster.


Trying to port an HL1 map to TF2 is tough. Everything changes in regards to layout and scale. I'll be revamping the cp3 area with a few little adjustments. Ill list them:

- Removing experimental roof that watches the 2 exits from cp2. I will leave the back portion available for sgs to emulate the little awning that was on the TFC version. The tall one will stay but removing health... I think that tall roof needs to be there for blu to get up there and break a stalemate, red snipers can easily watch that roof so I feel it's fair.

you could see a bit of the opening, but never all of it at once

- Ive been wrestling with a few ideas on how to fix this. I think the best way is to move the entire CP3 building over to blu's right oughtta solve it.

FYI - I didnt ADD any roofs, I took out about half actually. and fixed.


I was on it last night, full server, blu got cp1 real fast, we held em off at cp2 for a while, but we stopped em at cp3 for like 10 minutes... theres something wrong there!

lol

I promise guys, Im working on it! As we playtest more n more I can make adjustments.

[l3eeron]

OH! and Im working on getting the scoring system to give the flag capper points on the scoreboard for capping. Right now it does this really weird thing that adds 30 kills to the capper - wtf?! lol

No one knows how to fix that!

[EzCrash]

[quote="l3eeron";p="72052"]Right now it does this really weird thing that adds 30 kills to the capper - wtf?! lol[/quote]

Got something against players who cap the flag eh ?? I knew there was a good reason why I had a bad vibe about this map.

Seriously, as you can see by my stats, I have played a lot on Avantiville. I have always liked this map. Here's to hoping you get all the bugs worked out of it bro. !!!

[Lanferd]

30 kills HAHAHA

[EzCrash]

Oh, I misunderstood. I thought it added "deaths" to the person. Reading Comprehension for the win.

[LJ]

I don't recall the tfc version ever being ctf. As an official map it's always been command point.