The gun man during seeding

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The gun man during seeding

Post by ADevilishPotato » Mon Sep 09, 2013 8:00 pm

Seeding, the magical quite time on TV servers when they are filling up. For me, I find this to be a special time where there is no pressure at all that comes from playing the game, everyone is meleeing or messing around to their hearts content. However, there is the time when folks who are unfamiliar with the unspoken melee only guideline comes on and starts blastin away with 6-7 people on. Recently, I have seen folks start to get upset over someone coming in and doing such to the point that I felt I should start a thread on it. These are just my thoughts and musings on the matter and as such hopefully might clarify some points and hopefully help generate thoughts on this matter. This is intended for those who enjoy the melee only until XvX experience during seeding.

I guess first and foremost I want to start out by pointing out that there is no rule, no punishable action for those who choose to shoot during the melee only time. I want to strictly point that out. Unless the player is showing poor sportsmanlike behavior in other ways, there is no reason for supporters to be calling votekicks on non-melee players. I mean that is kind of counter productive to the whole reason you are there in the first place :P . However, I have found several strategies that either a) alert the player to melee only, or b) discourage their behavior until they either conform or leave.

I have found that most people who are running with guns do so because they are unaware of the unwritten guideline that regulars are running with. So this begs the simple answer, "well I just told them 'Melee only!' and they didn't listen." This is something that I think is the biggest problem that comes out of telling someone "hey melee only!" It falls under the same syndrome of spamming someone to seed by doing nothing more than inviting them to game. If I am a random pubber who has just joined and read "hey, it's melee only!" my reaction would be "huh? I didn't just join a melee only server, what are you talking about?" and keep blasting away. I have found that in my experience that explaining the situation in more detail goes a LONG way to making people play ball with the rest of the server. This is why I always type out something like "hey, we try to melee only until 6v6" or "hey we typically keep it to melee only until we get 6v6 or so." This does 2 things, first a defined time frame of which melee only will end that has the added bonus of telling them that the reason why we are doing it is due to a lack of players. It also gets across the message in a non-hostile, non-accusatory manner which, if enforced, would be enforcing a non-server rule. It is a suggestion, not a commandment, and I have received more positive outcomes from making sure my messages are sent like this than I have ever seen with anyone else (myself included back in the day) just telling the newly joined to "melee only."

Now, say a person still does not wish to play ball and is shooting despite everyone's efforts to make sure they understand what is going on. Well as everyone should know, that is when the use of counter guns is not frowned upon. However, this is not the end of that problem. The problem occurs when the team with the shooty guy on it continues to play as if there is no shooty guy. More than once the presence of 1 shooty player can take a friendly game of melee only seeding and turn it into a frustrating game of "are we meleeing, what is going on, well he is shooting, and he isn't, screw this im leaving." But what is a player to do? Well it falls to everyone on the server to start acting a certain way that discourages the actions taken by the shooty player (this is where I am sure there will be the "discussion" part :lol: ). For the players on the shooty team, it is fairly simple and straightforward, DO NOT PLAY AROUND THE PLAYER! What do I mean by this? Well simply put, if I am near the player who is shooting and I come up to the opposing team, I back off. I make sure to not make myself a threat. This does 2 things, a) it means the opposing player can focus on the shooter and b) means I am not caught in the crossfire. From the opposing player's point of view, there is nothing more frustrating trying to defend yourself from someone who is shooting you while simultaneously fighting off a melee-er. It is in fact unfair to even think that they can do it reliably. So you give them space to deal with their target, THEN you proceed to engage them once they have managed to get back into "melee mode". This really helps keep the server from spiraling into FFA guns mode.
On the flip side, it is up to the non-shooty team to target the shooter with extreme prejudice. What do I mean by that? I mean ignore everyone on the opposite team and go all out on the shooter. Everyone is just aiming at the shooter until he is dead, dead, dead, and dead again. Once he is out of the way, everyone goes back to melee and fun times continues. An important side note while doing this however is to make sure to keep telling him that the server is trying to keep it melee only until XvX. This again does 2 things, a) it keeps the disruption of the shooter to a minimum, and b) the shooter is either going to get a clue and stop shooting to which, problem solved; get frustrated and leave (which I know some of you are thinking HEY BUT THAT IS BAD, but remember that it is the shooter's choice to shoot and so it is also the server's choice to try to discourage that action because the action of one shooter can turn a whole server from having melee fun to not); or not influence them in anyway, in which case the same thing keeps going on until enough people have joined for guns, in which case the shooter's impact has been severely curtailed.

So the biggest problem to contend with is the fact that everyone has to play ball on both sides. Again, this is just my observations on what I have seen work the majority of the time to keep early melee only to melee only. If someone is just shooting, it does not mean that everyone has to go shooty shooty. And in the end if it does, oh well. But if you are like me and like your melee only time, this works pretty darn well. Just remember, it is all about communicating and communicating effectively.
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Re: The gun man during seeding

Post by NerevarineKing » Mon Sep 09, 2013 9:34 pm

ADevilishPotato wrote: This is why I always type out something like "hey, we try to melee only until 6v6" or "hey we typically keep it to melee only until we get 6v6 or so." This does 2 things, first a defined time frame of which melee only will end that has the added bonus of telling them that the reason why we are doing it is due to a lack of players. It also gets across the message in a non-hostile, non-accusatory manner which, if enforced, would be enforcing a non-server rule. It is a suggestion, not a commandment, and I have received more positive outcomes from making sure my messages are sent like this than I have ever seen with anyone else (myself included back in the day) just telling the newly joined to "melee only."
I can't stress this enough. Fully explaining the melee tradition in a calm manner is the best way to get the message across. I usually say "We usually like to do melee until 6v6 or so". I should really make a bind....
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Re: The gun man during seeding

Post by ADevilishPotato » Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:10 am

Also, I apologize for the terrible name given to this thread. In retrospect should have been "tater's guide to dealing with shooty shooty people" :P
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Re: The gun man during seeding

Post by Cat Square » Tue Sep 10, 2013 11:12 am

direct hit is the best for melee-only enforcement, if only soldier had a more fun melee weapon. Market Gardening is fun but gets really hard when people start expecting it.

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Re: The gun man during seeding

Post by ADevilishPotato » Tue Sep 10, 2013 11:49 am

I have also found that pyro works pretty well since you are close in, as does sniper due to high damage to a precision target, but the pain is getting through the other team who is meleeing you while you try to get the shooty. But again, communication like "i'm only shooting the shooter, please don't kill me" tends to work out when it is full of villuns.
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Re: The gun man during seeding

Post by Inner » Tue Sep 10, 2013 12:18 pm

Thank you. I agree with your tatery thoughts, especially when starting a seed with an empty server. (A 'cold-seed'.)

Sometimes TV8 sort of manages to 'warm-seed'. That is, no invites are sent or that kind of stuff, just some random people playing. When I join in that situation and they're all shooting, I make no effort to stop it. These folks are here having fun and I'm not going to do anything to scare them off. As more people start to join they usually just keep on shooting too and there are no major complaints. So, it's all good.

P.S. I enjoy the melee time too, and watching pyros like Dammets and Somedude play rocket volleyball on the TV8 bridge.

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Re: The gun man during seeding

Post by Plinko » Tue Sep 10, 2013 2:26 pm

Remember, the main point of melee only during seeding is to pass the time while getting a full server.
The people most likely to be shooty-shooty are random connectors who are probably not looking for a melee-only game. Most seeders are themselves waiting around to play normally so it's probably wiser to err on the side of shooting than not.

I've been through a fair number of seeds where people a little too particular about melee and they drive away players that could help seed (issues more on III and VIII where seeding is hard).

Please try to avoid that side of things - seeding melee is a tradition, not a rule.
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Re: The gun man during seeding

Post by The Domer » Tue Sep 10, 2013 4:26 pm

Plinko wrote:Remember, the main point of melee only during seeding is to pass the time while getting a full server.
The people most likely to be shooty-shooty are random connectors who are probably not looking for a melee-only game. Most seeders are themselves waiting around to play normally so it's probably wiser to err on the side of shooting than not.

I've been through a fair number of seeds where people a little too particular about melee and they drive away players that could help seed (issues more on III and VIII where seeding is hard).

Please try to avoid that side of things - seeding melee is a tradition, not a rule.
This.

I've seen people driven off because of over-zealous protection of the sacred melee tradition. That would be the opposite of the point of seeding.

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Re: The gun man during seeding

Post by ADevilishPotato » Tue Sep 10, 2013 6:01 pm

Which is the whole reason I made this thread. I have seen it both ways where folks who want to melee get driven off and folks who don't have the same thing happen. This was just my observation for those who enjoy the seed melee only tradition to try to keep the most people on the server happy. I posted this right after a seed that took place where a few people were really getting agro towards a player who was shooting (and last week had a supporter start a votekick on one), and I wanted to make a place to throw 2 cents in to try to avoid those situations.

Like I said, #1, melee only isn't a rule, and if it breaks down to guns, then so be it. This is in no way an endorsement to go all gunge-ho and be uber aggressive on promoting "melee only." That being said, if everyone on the server is having a good time meleeing and 1 person is ruining it by going guns...read the above for my thoughts of the matter. :D
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Re: The gun man during seeding

Post by black_and_blue » Tue Sep 10, 2013 8:28 pm

Also important not to overdo the melee only thing. I've seen it happen enough times that people leave during melee only because they want to shoot.

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Re: The gun man during seeding

Post by jettah » Wed Sep 11, 2013 7:01 pm

I have also found that saying, melee till 6v6 helps, as mentioned above.

I have also occasionally run into the issue of the single shooter appearing, and then I melee kill him, then he leaves the server. I know there is nothing that I can really do about it, but I still get sad when they leave. I try so hard sometimes to seed tv7, and i try so hard to not shoot the shooter, so I get the melee kill and they leave anyway...
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Re: The gun man during seeding

Post by ADevilishPotato » Wed Sep 11, 2013 9:42 pm

I wouldn't feel bad at all Jettah, people join and leave anyway when the server pop is both low and high, just the way things go.
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Re: The gun man during seeding

Post by Doomslapper » Wed Sep 11, 2013 11:33 pm

I treasure that time when I run around with my candy cane pretending to be on the opposite team. It...it speaks to my soul.
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Re: The gun man during seeding

Post by Earthworm James » Fri Sep 13, 2013 10:31 pm

there has been a wonderful unspoken tradition among us to team up on the person shooting, as well as if the person shooting is on your team, leaving them out to get tag-teamed melee style. also, there are other fun things to do before 6v6 that are in the same spirit as the melee tradition, if that involves shooting, yay! i particularly enjoy 2 pairs of solly/pyro at each side of warpath bridge. deflect rockets back n forth & explode.
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Re: The gun man during seeding

Post by ADevilishPotato » Sat Sep 14, 2013 2:46 am

Earthworm James wrote:there has been a wonderful unspoken tradition among us to team up on the person shooting, as well as if the person shooting is on your team, leaving them out to get tag-teamed melee style. also, there are other fun things to do before 6v6 that are in the same spirit as the melee tradition, if that involves shooting, yay! i particularly enjoy 2 pairs of solly/pyro at each side of warpath bridge. deflect rockets back n forth & explode.
Indeed, this was directed at those who are more new to the community that I've noticed struggle sometimes in dealing with a shooter.
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