Assessing results of the two-engie limit on TV-VI-Dustbowl

[flyingdutchman]

Half the server may want to go punch baby seals if they can't push, but the other half also wants to punch baby seals when they can't defend. Either option is better for one team than the other, and as with any either/or situation, I feel we should go with the option that does not restrict choices.

I agree with the belief that things shouldn't be made easier. I have learned quickly through the tougher competition more than easy shots at jumping chumps.

Let it also be known that I am happy to punch baby seals....in the face, regardless of my TF2 experience.

[NoodgeVader]

I think another reason for my dislike of the limit is its motivation.

I don't like any class limits at all, as I believe teams should succeed or fail on their own merit, and there is no particular class composition that cannot be countered by an appropriate response. That said, I understand why certain class limits are put in place. Sniper and spy limits, for example, are in place to improve the performance of an average team. Too many of those, and the average team will fail. The class limit on Engineers, however, is in place to hurt the performance of an average team. It is motivated by the desire to prevent a team from being maximally effective, and that's just not cool.

I believe that it's always better to encourage every team to do as well as possible, and that means encouraging people to learn how to fight against whatever setup an enemy may have, not just class-limiting the enemy out of existance.

I agree completely.

[Parade Kid]

Well said, Alizée.

[cam]

I play on TV VI frequently and it is frustrating when one or both engie slots are occupied by inexperienced players. The lowered class limit leaves experienced players wringing their hands and unable to rectify the situation. Engineers are especially important on stage 3, where most dustbowl gameplay occurs. A mediocre engie can cripple either team on this stage.

Exactly this. I don't want to keep circlejerking the issue but unless you can guarantee Red Stage 3 two very competent engies with the current restrictions, then they will lose to everything but the meagerest of pushes.

[Plinko]

The current stage win ratio for BLU/RED on dustbowl is 50/50, that does include TV7 stats, but it seems pretty clear that RED is able to win plenty of rounds under the new limits.

[Cat Square]

i vote to remove the 2 engie cap because of a lot of reasons people have already mentioned.

[Maj.GHOB]

I voted for the cap to remain. Frankly I prefer to have fast moving rounds where it becomes a real challenge to hold the different stages on Red.

Frankly I don't get frustrated by the inexperienced engies, cause they just don't know any better. It's not really their fault that they are new. They just need guidance and eventually they'll learn to play as part of a team.

What really frustrates me, is when I see a really bad SG placement by a regular who should know better and of course also adamantly refuses to listen. The frustration of course is due to me wanting and needing to count on the regulars on my team in order to make defensive or offensive pushes successful. Anyways...that's really really frustrating!

In any case...the engy limit should remain in place

[Cat Square]

What really frustrates me, is when I see a really bad SG placement by a regular who should know better and of course also adamantly refuses to listen. The frustration of course is due to me wanting and needing to count on the regulars on my team in order to make defensive or offensive pushes successful. Anyways...that's really really frustrating!

one time you got frustrated with me for building on the bridge instead of back closer to the point (stage 3, last cap, red team), and proceded to order me to do it your way multiple times. Maybe your key to not being so frustrated is to learn to adapt instead of always trying to get everyone to conform to what you think is the right way to play this game.

[Maj.GHOB]

What really frustrates me, is when I see a really bad SG placement by a regular who should know better and of course also adamantly refuses to listen. The frustration of course is due to me wanting and needing to count on the regulars on my team in order to make defensive or offensive pushes successful. Anyways...that's really really frustrating!

one time you got frustrated with me for building on the bridge instead of back closer to the point (stage 3, last cap, red team), and proceded to order me to do it your way multiple times. Maybe your key to not being so frustrated is to learn to adapt instead of always trying to get everyone to conform to what you think is the right way to play this game.

It certainly was not my intention to order you around. I made a request over voice chat and when I saw that you ignored me, I just let it be. If I recall, after you ignored my request to move the SG to a more defensible position, a demo took your SG down in 3 seconds and we got overrun and lost the game.

The only time an SG on the bridge works; is if there is already another wrangled SG behind the point AND, you have an air blasting pyro near the bridge SG to air blast ubers up in the air and away from the bridge SG. So your SG placement was not necessarily bad, but it was completely inappropriate for the position the team was in. We had neither an SG to back yours up, nor a pyro to help protect your SG on the bridge.

I know for a fact that you are an excellent player Cat Square, because I have seen you play often, and that's precisely why I was frustrated

[Dirty Dan]

DUSTBOWL LIKES TORTOLES

Sorry had to.

Edit:

Here's a screenshot from a recent dustbowl game I experienced that I think illustrates the situation quite well.

VIEW CONTENT:

[jim beam]

Dan you are making fun of a civil conversation we are having about a some what serious topic. It is not appreciated!!

[Cat Square]

It certainly was not my intention to order you around. I made a request over voice chat and when I saw that you ignored me, I just let it be. If I recall, after you ignored my request to move the SG to a more defensible position, a demo took your SG down in 3 seconds and we got overrun and lost the game.

The only time an SG on the bridge works; is if there is already another wrangled SG behind the point AND, you have an air blasting pyro near the bridge SG to air blast ubers up in the air and away from the bridge SG. So your SG placement was not necessarily bad, but it was completely inappropriate for the position the team was in. We had neither an SG to back yours up, nor a pyro to help protect your SG on the bridge.

I know for a fact that you are an excellent player Cat Square, because I have seen you play often, and that's precisely why I was frustrated

It isn't about which is the more defensible position, it's about playing my favorite game however I like. If I have fun playing aggressively (I do), then that's how I'll play. I'll never sacrifice fun for the win.

[Flash]

I see where you are coming from Cat Square. The other day as BLU on Stage 3 I setup down in the lower tunnel between the cap points. We had another ENG up top at the normal corner so I figured, why not, I'll give it a try down here for a while. It didn't last too long, but I had fun while doing it. [Of course someone pointed out they had never seen BLU win w/ a base down there and it was a bad spot.]

[Stevo]

[Cat Square]

I see where you are coming from Cat Square. The other day as BLU on Stage 3 I setup down in the lower tunnel between the cap points. We had another ENG up top at the normal corner so I figured, why not, I'll give it a try down here for a while. It didn't last too long, but I had fun while doing it. [Of course someone pointed out they had never seen BLU win w/ a base down there and it was a bad spot.]

that's annoying, someone can't place the blame for a loss so they just direct frustration at something that stood out. It's moments like those when I bite my tongue and try my hardest to not throw the combat classes under the bus.