Is spawn camping allowed on Dustbowl?

[flyingdutchman]

oh....and spawn camping is like plucking the wings off of baby birds before they even learn to fly.....



...and poop on heads.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Let's set the record straight.

As mentioned before, I was trying to explain to bigcaulk instances where situations may seem like spawn camping, but I believe they are not.

A perfect example is stage 3. When attacking second cap, as I cross the bridge I always fire 4 pipes and a couple stickies towards left spawn exit, and remaning stickies towards right spawn exit. By this time I'm already standing on cap and trigger the bombs. If you happen to be coming out, boom!

What am I supposed to do? Not fire onto the enemy until they are 5 steps from spawn door? I guarantee you they are assaulting me the moment the exit. It's just the way the map is setup.

On stage 2 when attacking second cap, as you drop from the ledge, spawn alley is clearly visible. I always fire towards it as I head to the cap. 4 pipes and a few stickies usually has some casualties as I step onto cap.

As a defense player, I understand this. Everyone knows I always state when on red: "Get off the point and move up!". If blue owns the left building in stage 3, I fully accept to get a rocket up my ass the moment I exit spawn. That's the price you pay for letting them have a nest 30 meters away.

When defending an stage, if I make it back to blue spawn and I see a tele there, I sticky it and blow it up. This usally results in blue casualties as well. Now that the tele is gone, spawn is off limits in my eyes. How is this any diferent than stickying the exit and waiting for a player?

I regularly see players performing "sweeps" of spawn on stage 3 when they are holding cap 1 well. They uber downstairs, clean house, and retreat. Usually there's no buildings there as well. That's as close as you get to spawn camping but it happens a lot. I usally limit myself to the upstairs garage and most medics can attest to this.

They are more examples but you get the idea. I would never condone simply attacking players as they exit spawn. Heck, how many times have I switched teams to help the other side? Don't start make it seem like I have no values or conscience.

If admins see these situations differently, I would be happy to listen and change my playing accordingly. I assume they have no problem since I have never heard a word about it in 4+ years of actively playing Ville.

For players that can't quite grasp these principles, I suggest Candyland or Tik-Tac-Toe. This is a big boys game.

Edit: Spelling

[ketchuo]

oh....and spawn camping is like plucking the wings off of baby birds before they even learn to fly.....



...and poop on heads.

So, ruin everyone day, yeah I'll be in tv8 or tv7 and enjoying myself buddy (this part is for spiff not you dutch.)

Also that end comment wasnt really necessary spiff.

[YoullNeverWalkAlone]

So, ruin everyone day, yeah I'll be in tv8 or tv7 and enjoying myself buddy (this part is for spiff not you dutch.)

Also that end comment wasnt really necessary spiff.

?

I imagine that Spiff's last sentence had something to do with feeling like he is being called out for his actions. I've been killed by Spiff more times than I care to count, but I've never had a problem with his ethics or how he plays the game. Spiff lays out some perfect examples of how shooting towards a spawn area is bound to happen on Dustbowl. He isn't talking about trapping a door or pointing an SG towards the doors. A/D and Payload maps, and even some of the capture the flag maps, just seem to lend themselves to issues like this.

[trilobite]

I support Spiff on this.
Dustbowl. On two of the stages, the RED spawn doors are adjacent to the objective. Once the focus of activity centers on the cap point, then BLU is obliged to deal with all nearby surrounding threats.

If Blu is making a serious play for the second point, and RED's spawn door is adjacent to the point, then that is most unfortunate... for RED (but maybe not). It is unreasonable to expect BLU players to ignore RED players who are standing at the spawn door throwing rockets and pipes at BLU. And it only makes sense for BLU to secure the cap by killing RED players who emerge from the adjacent spawn, thereby keeping the BLU cappers from getting killed. Once the guns are down and the remainder of the RED players surrounding the second cap are removed, often one or two players will cordon the cap point by laying down lines of fire aimed in all directions including the spawn. That's how the map is designed and that's how it has been played since the Mesozoic era at least.

So, although it could be argued that such a tactic is technically spawn camping, I think the argument is not relevant or meaningful given the accepted standard that has evolved after so many years of successful game play.

btw, although the RED spawn is vulnerable to attack during capping, having the spawn doors adjacent to the second cap provides RED with a huge advantage in that they can immediately act to defend the point after respawning. The bandwidth is limited only by the width of the spawn door. But even with teleporters, BLU must travel a fair amount of distance to re-engage after respawning. For BLU, the bandwidth is limited by the number and upgrade status of their teleporters.

For comparison, consider stage 1 Dustbowl. If BLU players navigated to the RED spawn doors and stickied the exit to kill emerging players -- now, THAT would be spawn camping since the spawn is remote from the objective.

[One_Medic_Army]

I see the necessity of firing at or into red spawn on two stages of Dustbowl to be poor map design.
Spawn should have multiple exits for one, and they shouldn't be situated as a blue firing range.

[Plinko]

Those points were made earlier in the thread, though.

[Larry]

Those points were made earlier in the thread, though.

good point

[flyingdutchman]

To be clear and completely non-confrontational, I am accusing nobody of doing this, but I've been frustrated by it when I've encountered it. I don't recall encountering it on Dustbowl though.

[Flaming Cheese Wheel]

Tangent: Last night I found myself in one of the worst designed-to-create arguments spawn areas, the second-floor spawn door walkway in ctf_doublecross. Teles are usually up here, and there's a secondary path to the intel room. The problem is that the passage, the spawn door, and THE RESUPPLY LOCKER are all within three feet of each other. Flame a guy to push him back into spawn so you can get by and he won't die. He'll just bounce off the locker and shoot you again. Silly map design.

[YoullNeverWalkAlone]

You do have to wonder about the thought process of the person who designed some of the maps. While there are somethings about warpath I don't like, people near spawn is certainly never a problem on that map.

At least on doublecross you don't see people go by spawn too often as it is usually too dangerous to pass by that way when you have other routes.

[black_and_blue]

My view on guidelines for where the spawn is really close to the objective:

1. Try not to target people until they leave and the spawn and the door closes behind them.
2. Feel free to target other people or buildings who didn't just spawn, but happen to be near the spawn. If people leaving the spawn get caught in the crossfire, though luck for them.
3. If enemies are shooting from the spawn, they are fair game, and again, if others get caught in the crossfire, though luck for them.

I feel it is very achievable to capture all of the points on dusbowl while still following these guidelines; those points capture pretty fast when you put 3 people on them.

[The Spanish Inquisition]

I like to think that having a spawn room and a spawn door is enough. In DOD:S we didn't have as much and so we had to make up rules for spawn camping. Now in tf2, we have spawn rooms for the most part, free from enemy fire and yet people still complain. You have to draw a line somewhere and the spawn door has to be it. Everything else falls under whether or not it's considered unsportsmanlike.

It's easy to remember....
Inside the spawn door: safe and relaxing.
Outside the spawn door: serious bizness.

[rammy]

THE ONLY ANSWER FROM ANYONE IN THIS THREAD SHOULD BE NO!!! ANY PERCEPTION OF SPAWN CAMPING SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED ON ANY SERVER. AGAIN, ANY PERCEPTION OF SPAWN CAMPING SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED ON ANY VILLE SERVER. (OPERATIVE WORD HERE IS PERCEPTION)

[Oni]

Spawn camping is the attempt of preventing a team from exiting a spawn by actively monitoring and attacking all that attempt to emerge.

That said it is very obvious to me when someone is spawn camping. I have rarely seen it on the Ville servers which makes them all the more attractive.

That being said, is something like a pyro uber by defense into a spawn area considered camping? It's directly attacking the area near spawn but if it isn't sustained attack....is it really camping?

I would lean towards no but what is everyone's opinion on that.