[quote="BigBiker05";p="173931"]
For all we know pyros may be able to airblast it.. soak a sniper in his own piss? Sounds good to me!
[/quote]
awwww yeah
Blog Update/Sniper Unlocks
[quote="Alizée Fan";p="173937"]
Ya know why I'm griping about it's anti-Pyro capabilities?
Because nearly every frigging class update that has ever come out has included an anti-Pyro component. I'm sick of it.
Medic: Blutsauger makes a good medic impervious to being chased down, as it heals faster than fire does damage.
Heavy: Natascha slows attackers. A Pyro's only means of killing a heavy is to charge and get close, which is generally impossible against Natascha. I'll face a heavy with Sasha any day.
Scout: Force of Nature gives a powerful knockback, preventing a Pyro from closing distance on a Scout, even by cutting across the center of a curve. The reload on the FAN is fast enough that a Pyro will NEVER be able to reach the Scout if the Scout decides to keep shooting.
Sniper: Jarate puts out fire on a target, eliminating the afterburn that is the most important part of playing Pyro as an ambush class, which Valve seems hellbent on making us do. "Maybe it only saves a medic" people say. Well guess what, saving the medic can save the entire frigging team. Killing the medic is mission #1.
Even the Pyro update itself got seriously nerfed not once, but twice, because it made the Pyro a survivable class. At the same time they tweaked Engy's to allow upgraded TP's and Dispensers, they also increased the knockback and lift from SGs, making it infinitely more difficult for Pyros to attack. The only update that hasn't had a blatently anti-spy item in it is the Spy update. I'd better not say that too loudly though, or they'll add something that makes cloaked spies fireproof.
[/quote]
Regardless of all of this, I have still seen Pyros as beasts when they use their own sidegrades in combo moves.
People so rarely use some of these sidegrades. For every five Scouts, you'll see one with the FaN. Same with the Heavy and Natascha. The only class that uses their sidegrade frequently is the Blutsauger, but even then, if you're out of range from a Medic, you shouldn't be hunting him down from that distance anyway (pestering him with the flare gun works so much better). If you're up close and he's needling you, flame --> airblast up --> axtinquisher. It's incredible how annoying that becomes when the same Pyro does that strategy on you (AGFJKAGDKGHKH ERAD).
Saying the Pyro is becoming nerfed because of the new weapons is like saying the Medic is losing a job because of stunned ubers, ability to put people out on fire, and sandwich.
Ya know why I'm griping about it's anti-Pyro capabilities?
Because nearly every frigging class update that has ever come out has included an anti-Pyro component. I'm sick of it.
Medic: Blutsauger makes a good medic impervious to being chased down, as it heals faster than fire does damage.
Heavy: Natascha slows attackers. A Pyro's only means of killing a heavy is to charge and get close, which is generally impossible against Natascha. I'll face a heavy with Sasha any day.
Scout: Force of Nature gives a powerful knockback, preventing a Pyro from closing distance on a Scout, even by cutting across the center of a curve. The reload on the FAN is fast enough that a Pyro will NEVER be able to reach the Scout if the Scout decides to keep shooting.
Sniper: Jarate puts out fire on a target, eliminating the afterburn that is the most important part of playing Pyro as an ambush class, which Valve seems hellbent on making us do. "Maybe it only saves a medic" people say. Well guess what, saving the medic can save the entire frigging team. Killing the medic is mission #1.
Even the Pyro update itself got seriously nerfed not once, but twice, because it made the Pyro a survivable class. At the same time they tweaked Engy's to allow upgraded TP's and Dispensers, they also increased the knockback and lift from SGs, making it infinitely more difficult for Pyros to attack. The only update that hasn't had a blatently anti-spy item in it is the Spy update. I'd better not say that too loudly though, or they'll add something that makes cloaked spies fireproof.
[/quote]
Regardless of all of this, I have still seen Pyros as beasts when they use their own sidegrades in combo moves.
People so rarely use some of these sidegrades. For every five Scouts, you'll see one with the FaN. Same with the Heavy and Natascha. The only class that uses their sidegrade frequently is the Blutsauger, but even then, if you're out of range from a Medic, you shouldn't be hunting him down from that distance anyway (pestering him with the flare gun works so much better). If you're up close and he's needling you, flame --> airblast up --> axtinquisher. It's incredible how annoying that becomes when the same Pyro does that strategy on you (AGFJKAGDKGHKH ERAD).
Saying the Pyro is becoming nerfed because of the new weapons is like saying the Medic is losing a job because of stunned ubers, ability to put people out on fire, and sandwich.
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I agree with Alizee, I stopped playing pyro as my main exactly because it seems every update the pyro gets weaker and weaker. Its already much too easy to put out flames, the DoT burn is half the reason the pyro is useful (the other being the airblast); adding yet another way to put it out is further diluting the class.
It would be like half the classes getting a razorback type defense against backstabs- as it stands now you can put out flames with health packs, dispensers, medi-guns and sadviches, now snipers can, too?
It just gives weight to the whole idea that the steam forums do hold too much sway with the constant whining about pyros being overpowered, which is really silly, they're very weak but easy to play which might be great for racking up kills against new players or people with no reaction times.
Think of it this way Infy, what other class needs to combo its weapons to get an advantage on someone? None I can think of unless you'd say sniper could pull a bodyshot on a rushing enemy and pull out the kukiri or SMG for close range. And If I get close enough to a medic that I could airblast him, he's dead unless there's another medic around 90% of the time no matter what happens. Maybe the puff/axe is annoying, but 4 seconds of direct flame would also have killed you.
It would be like half the classes getting a razorback type defense against backstabs- as it stands now you can put out flames with health packs, dispensers, medi-guns and sadviches, now snipers can, too?
It just gives weight to the whole idea that the steam forums do hold too much sway with the constant whining about pyros being overpowered, which is really silly, they're very weak but easy to play which might be great for racking up kills against new players or people with no reaction times.
Think of it this way Infy, what other class needs to combo its weapons to get an advantage on someone? None I can think of unless you'd say sniper could pull a bodyshot on a rushing enemy and pull out the kukiri or SMG for close range. And If I get close enough to a medic that I could airblast him, he's dead unless there's another medic around 90% of the time no matter what happens. Maybe the puff/axe is annoying, but 4 seconds of direct flame would also have killed you.
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- Bronze Fox
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Putting aside the whole jarate fire thing. I find it funny how you guys all say the Sniper unlocks are so useless. It's the same way I felt about the Scout update.
I'm sure some people are going to find uses for them, and maybe you're going to feel a little big of anger when someone kills you using them.
Everyone weapon has a time to be used, sometimes I have to use the Bonk drink to get a sentry not being guarded, but I don't carry it all the time.
When you're playing Sniper and the enemy team that has 2+ Spies the Razorback could be very handy.
When you're using the Huntsman, then having jarate could be handy because you will be in the front line, so you could set teammate out of fire.
Really all the weapons have a time to be used, but that is not all the time.
I'm sure some people are going to find uses for them, and maybe you're going to feel a little big of anger when someone kills you using them.
Everyone weapon has a time to be used, sometimes I have to use the Bonk drink to get a sentry not being guarded, but I don't carry it all the time.
When you're playing Sniper and the enemy team that has 2+ Spies the Razorback could be very handy.
When you're using the Huntsman, then having jarate could be handy because you will be in the front line, so you could set teammate out of fire.
Really all the weapons have a time to be used, but that is not all the time.
Indeed Maskanaki is right.
Considering it only puts out one fire and that's if the sniper in question actually likes the teammate who burning to death and he actually has jarate on him and there isn't a med kit or medic closer who could do the job better, I wouldn't worry about it nerfing the pyro.
If anything pyros are gonna have fun burning all the noob spies who don't understand the concept of stealth.
Considering it only puts out one fire and that's if the sniper in question actually likes the teammate who burning to death and he actually has jarate on him and there isn't a med kit or medic closer who could do the job better, I wouldn't worry about it nerfing the pyro.
If anything pyros are gonna have fun burning all the noob spies who don't understand the concept of stealth.
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Re: Blog Update/Sniper Unlocks
Medic: Blutsauger makes a good medic impervious to being chased down, as it heals faster than fire does damage.
Don't W+M1, pull out your shotgun or flare gun or airblast him into a corner.
Heavy: Natascha slows attackers. A Pyro's only means of killing a heavy is to charge and get close, which is generally impossible against Natascha. I'll face a heavy with Sasha any day.
Pyro is an ambush class, ambush him.
Scout: Force of Nature gives a powerful knockback, preventing a Pyro from closing distance on a Scout, even by cutting across the center of a curve. The reload on the FAN is fast enough that a Pyro will NEVER be able to reach the Scout if the Scout decides to keep shooting.
Catch him in your airblast then juggle him into a corner. If you can't catch him, shotgun or flare him.
Sniper: Jarate puts out fire on a target, eliminating the afterburn that is the most important part of playing Pyro as an ambush class, which Valve seems hellbent on making us do. "Maybe it only saves a medic" people say. Well guess what, saving the medic can save the entire frigging team. Killing the medic is mission #1.
As already stated, how many snipers do you see on the front line? Also we haven't even seen this used in game so we can't judge it yet.
Don't W+M1, pull out your shotgun or flare gun or airblast him into a corner.
Heavy: Natascha slows attackers. A Pyro's only means of killing a heavy is to charge and get close, which is generally impossible against Natascha. I'll face a heavy with Sasha any day.
Pyro is an ambush class, ambush him.
Scout: Force of Nature gives a powerful knockback, preventing a Pyro from closing distance on a Scout, even by cutting across the center of a curve. The reload on the FAN is fast enough that a Pyro will NEVER be able to reach the Scout if the Scout decides to keep shooting.
Catch him in your airblast then juggle him into a corner. If you can't catch him, shotgun or flare him.
Sniper: Jarate puts out fire on a target, eliminating the afterburn that is the most important part of playing Pyro as an ambush class, which Valve seems hellbent on making us do. "Maybe it only saves a medic" people say. Well guess what, saving the medic can save the entire frigging team. Killing the medic is mission #1.
As already stated, how many snipers do you see on the front line? Also we haven't even seen this used in game so we can't judge it yet.
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[quote="eraD";p="173969"]
Medic: Blutsauger makes a good medic impervious to being chased down, as it heals faster than fire does damage.
Don't W+M1, pull out your shotgun or flare gun or airblast him into a corner.
Heavy: Natascha slows attackers. A Pyro's only means of killing a heavy is to charge and get close, which is generally impossible against Natascha. I'll face a heavy with Sasha any day.
Pyro is an ambush class, ambush him.
Scout: Force of Nature gives a powerful knockback, preventing a Pyro from closing distance on a Scout, even by cutting across the center of a curve. The reload on the FAN is fast enough that a Pyro will NEVER be able to reach the Scout if the Scout decides to keep shooting.
Catch him in your airblast then juggle him into a corner. If you can't catch him, shotgun or flare him.
Sniper: Jarate puts out fire on a target, eliminating the afterburn that is the most important part of playing Pyro as an ambush class, which Valve seems hellbent on making us do. "Maybe it only saves a medic" people say. Well guess what, saving the medic can save the entire frigging team. Killing the medic is mission #1.
As already stated, how many snipers do you see on the front line? Also we haven't even seen this used in game so we can't judge it yet.
[/quote]
Dera 1
Alizee 0
sorry mate, but these are validpoints
Medic: Blutsauger makes a good medic impervious to being chased down, as it heals faster than fire does damage.
Don't W+M1, pull out your shotgun or flare gun or airblast him into a corner.
Heavy: Natascha slows attackers. A Pyro's only means of killing a heavy is to charge and get close, which is generally impossible against Natascha. I'll face a heavy with Sasha any day.
Pyro is an ambush class, ambush him.
Scout: Force of Nature gives a powerful knockback, preventing a Pyro from closing distance on a Scout, even by cutting across the center of a curve. The reload on the FAN is fast enough that a Pyro will NEVER be able to reach the Scout if the Scout decides to keep shooting.
Catch him in your airblast then juggle him into a corner. If you can't catch him, shotgun or flare him.
Sniper: Jarate puts out fire on a target, eliminating the afterburn that is the most important part of playing Pyro as an ambush class, which Valve seems hellbent on making us do. "Maybe it only saves a medic" people say. Well guess what, saving the medic can save the entire frigging team. Killing the medic is mission #1.
As already stated, how many snipers do you see on the front line? Also we haven't even seen this used in game so we can't judge it yet.
[/quote]
Dera 1
Alizee 0
sorry mate, but these are validpoints
- TheCarpe
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Re: Blog Update/Sniper Unlocks
I gotta agree with Erad, Alizee. With all due respect, I've played Pyro for the lions share of my time on TF2 and consider myself a good one, and have not seen myself as hindered too heavily by any of the updates. A Medic can kill a Pyro with a Blutsauger in straight combat, yes. But if you Zigzag towards the Medic he'll hit you with maybe 10 or less of that clip of needles. Medics aren't built for combat, and when they do have to fight, outside of your occassional Torven who can needle anyone anytime, the needles are not much of a hindrance. Be unpredictable, and you'll take him down easily.
A heavy with Natascha or Sasha, you'll never win in a head-on situation anyway. The name of the game for killing heavies is ambush. Granted, the Natascha makes the all-important circle strafing more difficult, but it does not negate the Pyros main strategy for attacking the Heavy.
Scouts aren't too great with the FaN from my experience. I've killed plenty of FaN Scouts. They knock you back, yes, but many Scouts have terrible aim with that thing, and only two shots. Scouts are tough to light up sometimes simply for their speed. If anything, the FaN complicates that slightly, while the terrible clip size pretty much assures I will survive enough to at least ignite him.
Jarate may put out people, but we don't know to what extent. Just one person every 10 seconds? Does that person also take more damage? I dont know about you, but 80% of my kills are people I walk over who i just flamebroiled. Medics, dispensers, and healthpacks can be so plentiful that afterburn isn't my main concern for killing people. Get in my flames and stay there!
If anything, the Pyro is stronger than he once was. Airblast, anyone?
A heavy with Natascha or Sasha, you'll never win in a head-on situation anyway. The name of the game for killing heavies is ambush. Granted, the Natascha makes the all-important circle strafing more difficult, but it does not negate the Pyros main strategy for attacking the Heavy.
Scouts aren't too great with the FaN from my experience. I've killed plenty of FaN Scouts. They knock you back, yes, but many Scouts have terrible aim with that thing, and only two shots. Scouts are tough to light up sometimes simply for their speed. If anything, the FaN complicates that slightly, while the terrible clip size pretty much assures I will survive enough to at least ignite him.
Jarate may put out people, but we don't know to what extent. Just one person every 10 seconds? Does that person also take more damage? I dont know about you, but 80% of my kills are people I walk over who i just flamebroiled. Medics, dispensers, and healthpacks can be so plentiful that afterburn isn't my main concern for killing people. Get in my flames and stay there!
If anything, the Pyro is stronger than he once was. Airblast, anyone?
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Re: Blog Update/Sniper Unlocks
[quote="eraD";p="173969"]Medic: Blutsauger makes a good medic impervious to being chased down, as it heals faster than fire does damage.
Don't W+M1, pull out your shotgun or flare gun or airblast him into a corner.[/quote]
Why would I W+M1 him? I'm some frigging newb like half of you seem to think. I've got over 350 hours as a Pyro alone - I know how to play the class, how to switch weapons, how to use unlocks or regulars, etc. While people whine at me about W+M1'ing, I'm usually busy burying an axe in their whiny skull.
A Blutsauger will out-heal a Shotgun's damage at chase range even more readily than the flamethrower's. Also, medics are fast enough going backwards that if you are in the "chase down" position, they're out of airblast range. Basically, the way a Pyro kills a medic is either to be right on top of him, or to pray he's stupid and doesn't know how to run.
This is a load of bull, left right and sideways. I play Pyro, and will continue to play Pyro. I'll continue to be as effective as I can be, which tends to be reasonably good. It will not, however, be as effective as in the past, if every time they update the game, they whittle away at our abilities.
This crap has got me pissed. I'm gonna take a couple days off, cause if I don't, I'm going to exhibit some pretty un-Villun-like behavior around here. Goodbye.
Don't W+M1, pull out your shotgun or flare gun or airblast him into a corner.[/quote]
Why would I W+M1 him? I'm some frigging newb like half of you seem to think. I've got over 350 hours as a Pyro alone - I know how to play the class, how to switch weapons, how to use unlocks or regulars, etc. While people whine at me about W+M1'ing, I'm usually busy burying an axe in their whiny skull.
A Blutsauger will out-heal a Shotgun's damage at chase range even more readily than the flamethrower's. Also, medics are fast enough going backwards that if you are in the "chase down" position, they're out of airblast range. Basically, the way a Pyro kills a medic is either to be right on top of him, or to pray he's stupid and doesn't know how to run.
Well thank you for that stunning insight. I didn't say that myself in my last post or anything, did I? Let me put it in small, easy to read sentences. Natascha makes Pyro slow. Ambush requires quick movement. Pyro ambushes Heavy with Natascha. Pyro gets slowed. Pyro can no longer strafe. Heavy kills Pyro. Heavy laughs. Ambushing a Heavy as a Pyro is not just a matter of starting near him, it's a matter of circle strafing, or of light-him-up + airblast + 2x Axtinguishing. Getting slowed makes both those exceedingly difficult. Can't circle strafe him while slowed, and Natascha will prevent you from reaching the Heavy after the airblast with enough time to deliver the 2 necessary whacks. The difference between delivering a 2nd Axtinguish, and dying after the first, is about a quarter second.Heavy: Natascha slows attackers. A Pyro's only means of killing a heavy is to charge and get close, which is generally impossible against Natascha. I'll face a heavy with Sasha any day.
Pyro is an ambush class, ambush him.
If he's too far away to be burned, do you honestly think he's close enough to airblast? WTF? Also, the FAN works while airblasted, so they tend to just bounce of whichever direction they want anyway. I do shotgun Scouts, pretty routinely now, as it's the only weapon with a hope against them unless they're in kamikaze mode. That does not compare however, and is a severe limit on effectiveness for ol' Pyro.Scout: Force of Nature gives a powerful knockback, preventing a Pyro from closing distance on a Scout, even by cutting across the center of a curve. The reload on the FAN is fast enough that a Pyro will NEVER be able to reach the Scout if the Scout decides to keep shooting.
Catch him in your airblast then juggle him into a corner. If you can't catch him, shotgun or flare him.
Hmm, burning medics running for help tend to A) Stay on the front line, or B) Run to the backfield. The correct answer is B. Second question - Does the Pyro's afterburn deal 10 damage A) Instantly, preventing people from running for help, or B) Over the course of 10 seconds, giving time to find assitance? Again, the correct answer is B. Competent teams generally have sufficient time to assist each other and take care of their burning comrades. You can't force Pyro's to depend on the other team's incompetence to be viable.Sniper: Jarate puts out fire on a target, eliminating the afterburn that is the most important part of playing Pyro as an ambush class, which Valve seems hellbent on making us do. "Maybe it only saves a medic" people say. Well guess what, saving the medic can save the entire frigging team. Killing the medic is mission #1.
As already stated, how many snipers do you see on the front line? Also we haven't even seen this used in game so we can't judge it yet.
This is a load of bull, left right and sideways. I play Pyro, and will continue to play Pyro. I'll continue to be as effective as I can be, which tends to be reasonably good. It will not, however, be as effective as in the past, if every time they update the game, they whittle away at our abilities.
This crap has got me pissed. I'm gonna take a couple days off, cause if I don't, I'm going to exhibit some pretty un-Villun-like behavior around here. Goodbye.
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Re: Blog Update/Sniper Unlocks
[quote="TheCarpe";p="173888"]We don't KNOW to what extent the usefulness of Jarate on burning victims is, so until we do, stop freaking out. I'm a Pyro too, you don't see me going nuts over it 
[/quote]
My first statement was badly put. Let me rephrase it more completely with its full intended nuance (as I was too lazy to do the first time).
My point was that they're placing a significant component of one of the Sniper's weapons at odds with the Pyro's main weapon. This is most likely going to result in a situation where a component of the Sniper's Jarate is largely without use or the Pyro suffers a nerf. Considering the Pyro's existing deficiencies, I feel that Valve shouldn't be doing this. Unless the class in hand actually deserves the nerf, such an action creates a lose-lose situation.
[/quote]My first statement was badly put. Let me rephrase it more completely with its full intended nuance (as I was too lazy to do the first time).
My point was that they're placing a significant component of one of the Sniper's weapons at odds with the Pyro's main weapon. This is most likely going to result in a situation where a component of the Sniper's Jarate is largely without use or the Pyro suffers a nerf. Considering the Pyro's existing deficiencies, I feel that Valve shouldn't be doing this. Unless the class in hand actually deserves the nerf, such an action creates a lose-lose situation.
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