Mann vs Machine Strategies and builds

[Plinko]

I'm fairly certain he was saying that in response to your statement above it. It's not unusual to reach a late wave only to realize you simply don't have the necessary classes to get it done. I'm not saying the mode should be balanced to allow six Spies to excel in it, but in some of the Mann Up modes if you're missing a crucial class or two, it feels damn near impossible.

Mostly this. There are classes that are more or less required (engie, heavy), ones that excel (Pyro, Demo, Spy, Medic), and ones that only work if you have the rest in good shape (Soldier, Sniper). I'd like to see something where soldier and sniper can contribute better DPS or better support abilities, and I don't think it would be too hard to do it with the ability purchases.

[Flaming Cheese Wheel]

I'm fairly certain he was saying that in response to your statement above it. It's not unusual to reach a late wave only to realize you simply don't have the necessary classes to get it done. I'm not saying the mode should be balanced to allow six Spies to excel in it, but in some of the Mann Up modes if you're missing a crucial class or two, it feels damn near impossible.

Mostly this. There are classes that are more or less required (engie, heavy), ones that excel (Pyro, Demo, Spy, Medic), and ones that only work if you have the rest in good shape (Soldier, Sniper). I'd like to see something where soldier and sniper can contribute better DPS or better support abilities, and I don't think it would be too hard to do it with the ability purchases.

I'd agree generally. Primarily because having to spend four hours chipping away at Mann Up only to find out on Stage 8 that your plan isn't working, meaning that you have no choice but to restart, is incredibly frustrating.

I mean, you don't have to restart, but if you swap classes along the way all of your cash upgrades on weapons are toast, which is a big problem if it's the end stage.

[Guardian]

I'm fairly certain he was saying that in response to your statement above it. It's not unusual to reach a late wave only to realize you simply don't have the necessary classes to get it done. I'm not saying the mode should be balanced to allow six Spies to excel in it, but in some of the Mann Up modes if you're missing a crucial class or two, it feels damn near impossible.

Mostly this. There are classes that are more or less required (engie, heavy), ones that excel (Pyro, Demo, Spy, Medic), and ones that only work if you have the rest in good shape (Soldier, Sniper). I'd like to see something where soldier and sniper can contribute better DPS or better support abilities, and I don't think it would be too hard to do it with the ability purchases.

I'd agree generally. Primarily because having to spend four hours chipping away at Mann Up only to find out on Stage 8 that your plan isn't working, meaning that you have no choice but to restart, is incredibly frustrating.

I mean, you don't have to restart, but if you swap classes along the way all of your cash upgrades on weapons are toast, which is a big problem if it's the end stage.

I agree but I don't think the solution is by modifying classes, there should be a way for you to refund points spent on a class and perhaps Anet should just limit the amount of times you can refund points to discourage people from constantly refunding.

[bubk]

My ideal setup for MvM (never been able to try, so just my own perspective :P) I played these classes in individual MvMs, and thought they could work together theoretically.

Kritz medic (uber viable)
Since (imo) it is less of a test of survivability and more of a test of damage output, a kritz medic will be essential (especially with maxed out 14 second kritz or so, plus uber canteens cost less than kritz). If your team is extremely damage heavy and not focusing on resistances, uber can work too. At the very least, you need A medic.
Engi
SG/dispenser/tele. Nuff said.
(Brass beast) heavy
Just your bread and butter to dishing out damage to incoming enemies. I like brass beast, since bots have good aim, and will probably hit you even when using another minigun. The lack of speed might suggest some defense upgrades first.
SR demo (must be decent as demo)
I feel a good SR demo is really nice to have on advanced levels. I've been playing seriously as one, and after understanding bot paths on each map (and some decent sticky placement/management and getting used to the lagtime on SR dets), the demo can deal some heavy damage without committing to line of sight very often (meaning they shouldn't be getting hit too often, which is very nice for a medic who is constantly healing their damage soaking heavies :D). In conjunction with the kritz medic, you can set up your stickies all with crits (great to start giant/tank rounds). And trust me, a demoknight does not work on advanced levels ;)
Non-scatter scout/heatmaker sniper
I also think a scout/sniper is necessary because of their slowing ability on their milk/jarate respectively, since it let's the engi's sentry (and your team) dish out more damage before the bots get out of range. Also, the sniper can really help out picking off enemy snipers (they can be extremely annoying, especially if three are gunning for your medic...). Additionally, a full upgraded heatmaker sniper wtih focus can chain snipe giants for about 900 each shot (gotta land them though ;3). The scout on the other hand can get cash really easily, making them very helpful in delivering the credits needed for your team to upgrade. Scattergun unfortunately is not enough to work out. I am a scatter scout in TF2, but in MvM, you can't beat the 1 clip reload for his other guns vs the 1 bullet reload on his scattergun.
Banner soldier (buff/battalion)
For tanks and giants, a buff banner soldier will be a lot of help, since he can buff everyone's damage. I always wanted to try a battalion soldier, especially if running into crit bomb carriers and giant soldiers (which is easily changeable between waves, so you can plan it out!)

[Inner]

My two cents:

Medic: Not nearly so useful in MvM. You tend to die quickly on MvM, not slowly from wounds. Plus health regen takes the place of minor touchups from a medic, and canteens replace ubers & krits.

Pryo: On the maps with $400 to start, I get 2 ubers and 1 ammo upgrade to start with. Keep refilling ubers every death, adding airblast force to max then ammo to max. Finally as cash builds up add full movement speed, jump and health regen upgrades. Not only can you run circles around and over the bots, but you can pickup cash about as fast as a scout. Damage upgrades when you're flush with cash.

Demo: I focus on stickies not grenades. More control over detonation and less worry about aim. Reload speed and firing speed upgrades are essential.

Tanks: Your melee weapon will usually do more damage than your primary weapon. Noteable exception is a nice pile of krit stickies.

Probably four cents.

[bluntspoon]

Heavy: WARNING Will Robinson, I'm going to ramble.

I go for ammo replenishment for the canteen until the late rounds. If there is a tank I always have ammo replenishment. It's cheap and using the other stuff prevents you from maxing the nice gun upgrades. Use kritz on the late rounds as needed, primarily for the "big robots". I have finished an 8 wave mission with every single option on the gun maxed. Boy howdy, that was FUN.

I switch on occasion to the natasha for the "big scout" waves with no upgrades and switch back after. Typically I do this only if there is no pyro.

Mainly use the regular Minigun, sometimes the Brass Beast. Focus most of my money into the gun itself. Some into +health on kills and some to fire resistance and bullet resistance depending on the wave or if a medic is playing..

I feel the class balance is fine as is. I've beat missions on mann up without an engie, for instance. I've been in groups with really weird combinations of classes and waxed each wave through to the end. It comes down to the quality of players. (A well played spy is incredibly powerful. Entire groups of medics being sapped is a sight to see.)

I'm horrified that Cheese took four hours on a mission. HORRIFIED. Please Cheese, group up with other Villuns; I have run 8 waves in 35 mins before with a group from the Ville.

[Mortis462]

...snip...
I feel the class balance is fine as is. I've beat missions on mann up without an engie, for instance. I've been in groups with really weird combinations of classes and waxed each wave through to the end. It comes down to the quality of players. (A well played spy is incredibly powerful. Entire groups of medics being sapped is a sight to see.)

I'm horrified that Cheese took four hours on a mission. HORRIFIED. Please Cheese, group up with other Villuns; I have run 8 waves in 35 mins before with a group from the Ville.

I have to completely agree with bluntspoon on this. To me is really comes down to who you are playing with, not what classes you have in the group. I also have beaten every map with very strange class mixes while just screwing around, for example, pyro using only flare gun, me as a scout using only stun on a stick and milk, pee sniper, spy, demo knight and a cowmangler solly.

I am also fairly different as I hardly ever use canteens, maybe in the last round or 2 when I have extra money or there is something about to drop a bomb. The exception to this is when I am playing engie, then I always try to have the instant upgrades on hand. To me it's not worth the money you loose that could go into upgrades. I also try to watch buying back in, if I am the only person down on the team I will not buy back in as I am confident that the other 5 can handle the 10 seconds or so without me. If there are multiple people down or the bomb is getting close you can count on the fact that I am mashing the buy back in button to get back into the thick of it.

I have never gone into the horrors that pubbing MvM must be so I have really never seen or experienced how bad this can apparently be. So yeah please seek out us Villuns for your robot killing adventures. All maps can be done in under 45min with a good group, a lot them can be done in 20-25min.

I hope to not come off like some elitist "pro" at this because I certainly am not. I have failed plenty of times I just want to add what I have found to the knowledge pool. And in the end isn't the point to kill robots with with friends regardless of outcome? I know I still have fun failing with Villuns.

[Flaming Cheese Wheel]

The times did improve (that post was a month ago) in the two subsequent completions. I've just been too busy to try anything lately.

Though back in the day I'd hit up random pub L4D on Expert for the challenge, or to gawk at the horribleness of humanity.

[Mortis462]

Though back in the day I'd hit up random pub L4D on Expert for the challenge, or to gawk at the horribleness of humanity.

Wow you do like to see the dregs, that's just asking for the pain

[Boss Llama]

Though back in the day I'd hit up random pub L4D on Expert for the challenge, or to gawk at the horribleness of humanity.

Wow you do like to see the dregs, that's just asking for the pain

Seriously.

Pubbing L4D2 in general is an agonizing lesson in masochism, and generates sheet horror in me at the utter derth of any redeemable quality in much of human kind. To do it on expert... well... at least you get the satisfaction of watching said terrible people die horribly over and over?

[Flaming Cheese Wheel]

Though back in the day I'd hit up random pub L4D on Expert for the challenge, or to gawk at the horribleness of humanity.

Wow you do like to see the dregs, that's just asking for the pain

Seriously.
Pubbing L4D2 in general is an agonizing lesson in masochism, and generates sheet horror in me at the utter derth of any redeemable quality in much of human kind. To do it on expert... well... at least you get the satisfaction of watching said terrible people die horribly over and over?

So much rage... so much autoshotty teamkilling... so much griefing... and the occasional glorious success.

[Larry]

Wait, L4D2 is about Zombies? I thought it was MW2 and everybody just sucked. No wonder everybody kept telling me to stop "team-killing".

[wedge]

Does anyone have a strategy for expert Mann Works? My group has restarted the last wave so many times.