CP_Rainier - 5CP Push Map - Current Ver.: A7A
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Re: Trying to map again - playtesting and feedback needed!
When are we going to try it again? Please tell me it's not on a Wednesday...
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Re: Trying to map again - playtesting and feedback needed!
No plans yet, but I definitely want to run it soon. I have this and next week off from school, so I'll have to talk to Flash (or another admin, he's just the one that did it before) to get it set up.black_and_blue wrote:When are we going to try it again? Please tell me it's not on a Wednesday...
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Re: Trying to map again - playtesting and feedback needed!
I spoke with Flash briefly last night, and I'm now trying to get this set up for another test run early next week. Currently I'm aiming for a Sunday evening testing session, with the possibility of a Monday session as well (if Sunday does not work, then there may be a session on Monday only). Plans still need to be nailed down, but that's what I'm currently trying for. I don't think there will be any more versions of the map produced between now and then, so version A5A is likely the one that will be tested, barring any glaring errors that anyone finds between now and Sunday.
This test will be on the events server again, and with luck it will be the last test on said server before it can begin being tested on TV2 instead. After this test, I'm going to try to lay down at least some temporary textures on the remaining dev-textured portions of the map (which is still most of the map at this point ) so that it will look good enough for a public run.
Hope to see a lot of people there!
This test will be on the events server again, and with luck it will be the last test on said server before it can begin being tested on TV2 instead. After this test, I'm going to try to lay down at least some temporary textures on the remaining dev-textured portions of the map (which is still most of the map at this point ) so that it will look good enough for a public run.
Hope to see a lot of people there!
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Re: Trying to map again - playtesting and feedback needed!
I am unlikely to be able to attend Sunday or Monday, but if I'm around I will.
- Will T.
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Re: Trying to map again - playtesting and feedback needed!
A big thank-you to everyone who participated in tonight's test! I got loads of useful info and will be able to put it all to use in making some potentially major changes to the map's layout to improve both balance and flow.
Unfortunately, this map is currently on hold because the TF2 Steampipe conversion has, perhaps unsurprisingly, rendered the Source SDK unusable with TF2, because it is still looking for the game's files in their old location. Valve has stated that they will be releasing a new SDK "in a couple weeks," but knowing Valve, it could be quite a bit longer. I'm optimistic that they'll be true to their word for once due to the sheer number of people affected (it is also impossible to compile models for TF2 using any of the methods that I am aware of due to the Steampipe conversion, which means that Workshop modelers are affected as well), but it's hard to trust someone for whom "in the coming weeks" has previously meant "over the course of the next 2 to 4 years" (the class-specific achievement packs and the Meet the Team videos). I wanna keep plowing ahead on this, but the lack of a functional tool to do it with is sort of a big barrier!
In the meantime, if anyone has any burning feedback from tonight, drop it here and I'll add it to my running list of things to address in the next/future updates.
Unfortunately, this map is currently on hold because the TF2 Steampipe conversion has, perhaps unsurprisingly, rendered the Source SDK unusable with TF2, because it is still looking for the game's files in their old location. Valve has stated that they will be releasing a new SDK "in a couple weeks," but knowing Valve, it could be quite a bit longer. I'm optimistic that they'll be true to their word for once due to the sheer number of people affected (it is also impossible to compile models for TF2 using any of the methods that I am aware of due to the Steampipe conversion, which means that Workshop modelers are affected as well), but it's hard to trust someone for whom "in the coming weeks" has previously meant "over the course of the next 2 to 4 years" (the class-specific achievement packs and the Meet the Team videos). I wanna keep plowing ahead on this, but the lack of a functional tool to do it with is sort of a big barrier!
In the meantime, if anyone has any burning feedback from tonight, drop it here and I'll add it to my running list of things to address in the next/future updates.
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Re: Trying to map again - playtesting and feedback needed!
It's looking good Will!
My only thoughts are to:
Increase the "cap area" around points 2/4
Make the roll up door exiting the spawn at point two a wider door to help with flow of people getting out.
My only thoughts are to:
Increase the "cap area" around points 2/4
Make the roll up door exiting the spawn at point two a wider door to help with flow of people getting out.
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Re: Trying to map again - playtesting and feedback needed!
Good map, but I agree with others that the hallways/doors are a wee bit narrow. Otherwise, lots of room to run, multiple routes to the CP's so it can't be dominated by a single engie. Looking good so far.
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Re: Trying to map again - playtesting and feedback needed!
As for Steampipe: In most of the interviews with Valve staff that I've read or listened to, they've called out how important (both culturally and monetarily) external content creators like you are. They're definitely not going to ignore this breakage, though that obviously says little about how difficult it will be to actually fix it.
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Re: Trying to map again - playtesting and feedback needed!
With the SDK still out of commission the effects of Mapping Withdrawal are setting in. As such, I've decided to sketch out some of my ideas for changes to the map to be presented here.
Areas marked in red are areas of the map which will be removed, and areas marked in yellow will likely also be either removed or significantly altered due to these removals.
One of the most common complaints I heard during Sunday's testing session was that there were too many routes through the map, leading to confusion for all classes and a particular disadvantage for Demos and other classes who rely on chokepoints to do their job well. The hallway marked in red here in the forward building is almost entirely cut off from the rest of this portion of the map, making it an extremely easy bypass if an Engineer or other class/es are set up in the main area of the building. Cutting it off funnels players through the large room, forcing confrontations and creating a point where the two teams are guaranteed to meet. The hallway marked in yellow will likely also be altered significantly or removed altogether as a result of the other portion of it being removed.
This outdoor side route between the forward and final points presents a similar problem to the above hallway: it allows a total bypass of the building, meaning that players can sneak around the critical combat space and stealth-cap the final point. By removing it, everyone has to pass through the building, once again creating a chokepoint and forced-confrontation area. The area marked in yellow is a side hall that existed solely to provide access to the side route, and as such will likely be removed entirely due to losing its function.
This doorway creates for one of the map's worst sightlines. (Special thanks to DarkDrifter, who helped me figure out exactly where the horrible sightline everyone was talking about on Sunday actually is.) I'm likely going to simply remove the doorway, both to cut off the sightline and to reduce the overall number of entrances/exits to the forward buildings, thus reducing confusion and aiding in the aforementioned problem of a lack of chokepoints.
On the other end of the same sightline, if both of the sliding metal doors on the right side of either forward building are open, one can see from mid all the way to the forward point. By pulling the wall on the right out a little bit, I can block this LOS completely without disrupting the flow of players through this area significantly.
I wish I could implement this stuff for actual testing ... for now, these screenshots will have to do. Any advice/feedback solely based on these?
Areas marked in red are areas of the map which will be removed, and areas marked in yellow will likely also be either removed or significantly altered due to these removals.
One of the most common complaints I heard during Sunday's testing session was that there were too many routes through the map, leading to confusion for all classes and a particular disadvantage for Demos and other classes who rely on chokepoints to do their job well. The hallway marked in red here in the forward building is almost entirely cut off from the rest of this portion of the map, making it an extremely easy bypass if an Engineer or other class/es are set up in the main area of the building. Cutting it off funnels players through the large room, forcing confrontations and creating a point where the two teams are guaranteed to meet. The hallway marked in yellow will likely also be altered significantly or removed altogether as a result of the other portion of it being removed.
This outdoor side route between the forward and final points presents a similar problem to the above hallway: it allows a total bypass of the building, meaning that players can sneak around the critical combat space and stealth-cap the final point. By removing it, everyone has to pass through the building, once again creating a chokepoint and forced-confrontation area. The area marked in yellow is a side hall that existed solely to provide access to the side route, and as such will likely be removed entirely due to losing its function.
This doorway creates for one of the map's worst sightlines. (Special thanks to DarkDrifter, who helped me figure out exactly where the horrible sightline everyone was talking about on Sunday actually is.) I'm likely going to simply remove the doorway, both to cut off the sightline and to reduce the overall number of entrances/exits to the forward buildings, thus reducing confusion and aiding in the aforementioned problem of a lack of chokepoints.
On the other end of the same sightline, if both of the sliding metal doors on the right side of either forward building are open, one can see from mid all the way to the forward point. By pulling the wall on the right out a little bit, I can block this LOS completely without disrupting the flow of players through this area significantly.
I wish I could implement this stuff for actual testing ... for now, these screenshots will have to do. Any advice/feedback solely based on these?
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Re: Trying to map again - playtesting and feedback needed!
In the second screenshot, you should leave that area intact. Instead you should remove the doorway at the bottom leading into the right-hand building next to the point. I was able to backcap that considerably because when no one was paying attention to that route (given it's openness, it should have some cover), I could just walk in the lower door and follow back route to the last point; it's pretty similar to the left-hand passage on Badlands.
What I would also suggest, in addition to removing that door, add an open window on the second floor to allow for defensive sniping down that road. Also perhaps a fence by the capture point to prevent people from just walking by the point and straight onto that side flank, thus requiring the players to at least enter the building to progress.
I took your screenshot to show what I mean: Add a window at that blue rectangle at the top and block or fence off the area between the green lines at the bottom. This way the area is still in play but not so easily accessible and able to be monitored more effectively by the defenders. And don't forget to remove the ground-level doorway.
What I would also suggest, in addition to removing that door, add an open window on the second floor to allow for defensive sniping down that road. Also perhaps a fence by the capture point to prevent people from just walking by the point and straight onto that side flank, thus requiring the players to at least enter the building to progress.
I took your screenshot to show what I mean: Add a window at that blue rectangle at the top and block or fence off the area between the green lines at the bottom. This way the area is still in play but not so easily accessible and able to be monitored more effectively by the defenders. And don't forget to remove the ground-level doorway.
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Re: Trying to map again - playtesting and feedback needed!
Very small update with good news and bad ... not "this project is dead" bad, but "every time Valve makes a big move in the right direction, they reveal an even bigger problem" bad.
First, the big bad news: apparently the Steampipe update was such a big shift that the SDK will require a near-total rebuild to fix, and being Valve, they didn't actually start working on it until the update hit, so they're only in the extreme preliminary stages right now. So whatever their new SDK plans are, the ability to map properly again is still a long ways off.
The good news, however, is that they have stated ~24 hours ago that they are working on it, and they have in fact released a "very early build" of their SDK fixes via an opt-in beta branch of TF2. This new setup is only barely functional and requires a lot of tweaks by the user to even get Hammer to boot without crashing, but at the very least it is tangible evidence that they're not giving up. I tried to use this new beta, but after following every instruction I could to make it work, I got as far as Hammer running like this:
As you can see, almost every texture is broken, and no models are loading correctly. If I can fix this on my end, then all should hopefully be good, but if not then I'll have to wait for them to update again.
Finally, some more good news - possibly the best of all for this project:
It occured to me that the Source Filmmaker includes its own version of Hammer and its own build of TF2, and while the game itself within the SFM is nowhere near up to date, the assets were updated to include all of TF2's assets sometime after the MvM update last year. I tested it, and the map opens properly there (although a handful of overlays are missing - I don't know if this will be a problem in-game, but if it's only in the editor, I can probably live with it for now), but I don't know if maps compiled for the SFM are cross-compatible with the current TF2 build. If they are, I can probably start shipping map updates and continue limping forward with that until TF2 gets proper SDK support again. So no more Mapping Withdrawal!
If all goes well, I can finally produce an A6 incorporating feedback from last Sunday's test. I'll bring more news at some point, whether good or bad...
------
UPDATE:
Well, mixed news again ... I can edit the map easily in the SFM version of Hammer, but apparently that version of Hammer compiles its maps using a newer version of the .BSP file format that TF2 can't read. That means that I cannot use it for mapping.
I'll continue trying to find work-arounds for now, as I hate to let this map sit dormant and risk being forgotten about amidst all my other projects. There has to be some way to make this work ... others have made the new SDK beta work near-flawlessly, so there must be something I'm doing wrong that I can fix.
------
UPDATE 2:
SUCCESS! I figured out what I was doing wrong with the new beta, and now things seem to be working again! I can edit, compile, and run maps again with no obvious problems yet. We're back in business!
Currently I'm going through the process of implementing the changes mentioned here and those on a private list I compiled during the playtest. Expect a new version to be posted soon!
If anyone else is wanting to make Hammer work again and would like me to walk them through how I got it up and running, hit me up on Steam and I'll help you out. It's a complicated process that I'd rather not post here as I'd probably get something wrong or forget a critical step.
First, the big bad news: apparently the Steampipe update was such a big shift that the SDK will require a near-total rebuild to fix, and being Valve, they didn't actually start working on it until the update hit, so they're only in the extreme preliminary stages right now. So whatever their new SDK plans are, the ability to map properly again is still a long ways off.
The good news, however, is that they have stated ~24 hours ago that they are working on it, and they have in fact released a "very early build" of their SDK fixes via an opt-in beta branch of TF2. This new setup is only barely functional and requires a lot of tweaks by the user to even get Hammer to boot without crashing, but at the very least it is tangible evidence that they're not giving up. I tried to use this new beta, but after following every instruction I could to make it work, I got as far as Hammer running like this:
As you can see, almost every texture is broken, and no models are loading correctly. If I can fix this on my end, then all should hopefully be good, but if not then I'll have to wait for them to update again.
Finally, some more good news - possibly the best of all for this project:
It occured to me that the Source Filmmaker includes its own version of Hammer and its own build of TF2, and while the game itself within the SFM is nowhere near up to date, the assets were updated to include all of TF2's assets sometime after the MvM update last year. I tested it, and the map opens properly there (although a handful of overlays are missing - I don't know if this will be a problem in-game, but if it's only in the editor, I can probably live with it for now), but I don't know if maps compiled for the SFM are cross-compatible with the current TF2 build. If they are, I can probably start shipping map updates and continue limping forward with that until TF2 gets proper SDK support again. So no more Mapping Withdrawal!
If all goes well, I can finally produce an A6 incorporating feedback from last Sunday's test. I'll bring more news at some point, whether good or bad...
------
UPDATE:
Well, mixed news again ... I can edit the map easily in the SFM version of Hammer, but apparently that version of Hammer compiles its maps using a newer version of the .BSP file format that TF2 can't read. That means that I cannot use it for mapping.
I'll continue trying to find work-arounds for now, as I hate to let this map sit dormant and risk being forgotten about amidst all my other projects. There has to be some way to make this work ... others have made the new SDK beta work near-flawlessly, so there must be something I'm doing wrong that I can fix.
------
UPDATE 2:
SUCCESS! I figured out what I was doing wrong with the new beta, and now things seem to be working again! I can edit, compile, and run maps again with no obvious problems yet. We're back in business!
Currently I'm going through the process of implementing the changes mentioned here and those on a private list I compiled during the playtest. Expect a new version to be posted soon!
If anyone else is wanting to make Hammer work again and would like me to walk them through how I got it up and running, hit me up on Steam and I'll help you out. It's a complicated process that I'd rather not post here as I'd probably get something wrong or forget a critical step.
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Re: CP_Rekkit (5CP Push Map) - Current Version: A6
"Soon" is kind of a funny word when you think about it...
After an absolutely grueling amount of work (seriously, this was the antithesis of easy! ), I have finally, finally, FINALLY finished version A6. The reason this one took so long is because I wanted to get the map to a state where I would feel comfortable testing it on TV2 rather than in the relative privacy of the event server. That meant retexturing ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING, as well as turning every single ramp into a staircase. Altogether this represents probably 30-40 hours of work solely for this update. Of course I also implemented all of the layout and gameplay changes I wanted to based on the last playtest.
Download version A6 here!
The visual difference in this version is drastic. Here are some before and after shots to let you see just how far this has come since A5A:
For added fun, open any set of before/after images in tabs and flip back and forth between them. The angles are the same, so you can really see the difference!
This is NOT a final art pass - it is a texture pass to get the map ready for semi-public testing. It's a major step in making a future art pass easier, but it is not in itself meant to make the map's visual theme 100% complete. There is still a lot more to do to refine it, smooth out rough edges, and really give it the proper atmosphere!
Here is a mostly-complete changelog for this version:
-Massive visual overhaul across the entire map
-Converted all ramps into staircases
-Fixed spawn doors opening for the wrong team
--This was due to a pair of missing entities that I had sworn were in the map before, but seem to have escaped... They've been brought back and placed in shackles now.
-Redesigned the building at mid to hopefully once and for all demonstrate that the roof is inaccessible.
-Widened narrow hallways in the forward buildings
-Widened bridges connected to narrow hallways in the forward buildings
-Removed a side hall from the forward buildings
--It was just one route too many.
-Removed an open doorway on the forward buildings leading to mid
--There was an open doorframe which, if the conditions were right, allowed a player (i.e. a Sniper) to see all the way from their team's base near the forward point to the other team's forward point. I have removed this doorway as, believe it or not, being able to snipe across 40% of the map is slightly detrimental to the map's fun quotient. Just slightly.
-Pushed a wall in the forward buildings near the staircases out slightly
--Again to resolve the above-mentioned sightline.
-Redesigned forward spawnrooms near forward points
--Made the upper floor exit easier to access
--Moved the resupply cabinet further from the door to avoid exploitation of its position by those inside (i.e. shooting out the door while getting resupplied constantly)
--Made the ground-floor door larger
--Moved the ground-floor door further back from the point
---While the conditions under which this door could be exploited were very precise, I wanted to avoid the potential issue of players utilizing the door's direct view of the point as a way of shooting enemies while hiding in their spawn room. As such, I have moved it to a different position.
-Removed a portion of the flanking route between the first and forward points
--Again, this was simply one route too many.
-Removed a ground-floor doorway in the side building near the final point
-Removed a second-floor corridor leading directly to the final point from the building beside it
-Added a sniper nest overlooking the flanking route near the final point
-Added nobuild to all control points
--This was supposed to be there all along, but somehow got overlooked.
Please note that there are dev textures still visible on the raised areas around mid, and that you can see out of the world underneath of some of the staircases at mid. This will be fixed later, but I have special plans for these elements that I do not want to begin working on until I am ready to commit to a finalized layout of mid. If you see dev textures anywhere else in the map, such as in door frames, please let me know!
I think that's it. Have a look around, report crippling bugs, and let's have another playtest soon now that not only has the layout once again undergone significant revisions, but the map is visually ready to graduate to TV2 for testing!
After an absolutely grueling amount of work (seriously, this was the antithesis of easy! ), I have finally, finally, FINALLY finished version A6. The reason this one took so long is because I wanted to get the map to a state where I would feel comfortable testing it on TV2 rather than in the relative privacy of the event server. That meant retexturing ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING, as well as turning every single ramp into a staircase. Altogether this represents probably 30-40 hours of work solely for this update. Of course I also implemented all of the layout and gameplay changes I wanted to based on the last playtest.
Download version A6 here!
The visual difference in this version is drastic. Here are some before and after shots to let you see just how far this has come since A5A:
VIEW CONTENT:
This is NOT a final art pass - it is a texture pass to get the map ready for semi-public testing. It's a major step in making a future art pass easier, but it is not in itself meant to make the map's visual theme 100% complete. There is still a lot more to do to refine it, smooth out rough edges, and really give it the proper atmosphere!
Here is a mostly-complete changelog for this version:
-Massive visual overhaul across the entire map
-Converted all ramps into staircases
-Fixed spawn doors opening for the wrong team
--This was due to a pair of missing entities that I had sworn were in the map before, but seem to have escaped... They've been brought back and placed in shackles now.
-Redesigned the building at mid to hopefully once and for all demonstrate that the roof is inaccessible.
-Widened narrow hallways in the forward buildings
-Widened bridges connected to narrow hallways in the forward buildings
-Removed a side hall from the forward buildings
--It was just one route too many.
-Removed an open doorway on the forward buildings leading to mid
--There was an open doorframe which, if the conditions were right, allowed a player (i.e. a Sniper) to see all the way from their team's base near the forward point to the other team's forward point. I have removed this doorway as, believe it or not, being able to snipe across 40% of the map is slightly detrimental to the map's fun quotient. Just slightly.
-Pushed a wall in the forward buildings near the staircases out slightly
--Again to resolve the above-mentioned sightline.
-Redesigned forward spawnrooms near forward points
--Made the upper floor exit easier to access
--Moved the resupply cabinet further from the door to avoid exploitation of its position by those inside (i.e. shooting out the door while getting resupplied constantly)
--Made the ground-floor door larger
--Moved the ground-floor door further back from the point
---While the conditions under which this door could be exploited were very precise, I wanted to avoid the potential issue of players utilizing the door's direct view of the point as a way of shooting enemies while hiding in their spawn room. As such, I have moved it to a different position.
-Removed a portion of the flanking route between the first and forward points
--Again, this was simply one route too many.
-Removed a ground-floor doorway in the side building near the final point
-Removed a second-floor corridor leading directly to the final point from the building beside it
-Added a sniper nest overlooking the flanking route near the final point
-Added nobuild to all control points
--This was supposed to be there all along, but somehow got overlooked.
Please note that there are dev textures still visible on the raised areas around mid, and that you can see out of the world underneath of some of the staircases at mid. This will be fixed later, but I have special plans for these elements that I do not want to begin working on until I am ready to commit to a finalized layout of mid. If you see dev textures anywhere else in the map, such as in door frames, please let me know!
I think that's it. Have a look around, report crippling bugs, and let's have another playtest soon now that not only has the layout once again undergone significant revisions, but the map is visually ready to graduate to TV2 for testing!
Last edited by Will T. on Sat May 11, 2013 12:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: CP_Rekkit (5CP Push Map) - Current Version: A6
Hey, that looks like a map. What gives?
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Re: CP_Rekkit (5CP Push Map) - Current Version: A6
Rekkit is still a working title, right?
On another note, at the middle point above the playing area, some of the blue side's textures are missing entirely. There's two large purple blocks of missing texture towering over the point. I took a screenshot, but Steam Community isn't letting me see them.
On another note, at the middle point above the playing area, some of the blue side's textures are missing entirely. There's two large purple blocks of missing texture towering over the point. I took a screenshot, but Steam Community isn't letting me see them.
This is hard to be cool and suave while being informative at the same time. Goddamn my coolness.
In my experience, common sense isn't too common.
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Re: CP_Rekkit (5CP Push Map) - Current Version: A6
I found the texture you're referring to ... it turns out it's a texture from a custom asset package I downloaded a while back. The thing about this texture is that it is in every way identical to one of the default concrete textures, so I thought it was the default one. Why such a texture warranted inclusion in a package of "custom" assets (specifically, a package meant to supplement the default TF2 assets, not replace them) is beyond me.
New version with the default texture replacing the doppelganger will be uploaded shortly.
EDIT: Map is updated to A6A. Get it here!
New version with the default texture replacing the doppelganger will be uploaded shortly.
EDIT: Map is updated to A6A. Get it here!
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