TV2 Revival/Discussion Thread 2.0: The Re-revivaling

[Rits]

I agree that turbine should stay. It's a simple and a nice ctf map. I guess some don't like it because it's like mach4 and 2fort?

[Ironwolf]

I will help bring it back up and seed when I can, but I wont trust you itchy! I cant trust anyone who says trust me.

I mean, if you were trustworthy you wouldnt need to say it!

[Plinko]

I also would prefer keeping turbine to chaos, I hate chaos and love turbine - that's my only reason.

I'm looking forward to giving the new version of camping trip a try.

Toy Fort remains contraversial - it brings in players who typically don't stick around for other maps.

Mach4 was fun during old skool customs - mostly due to the 1 engineer limit. I still think it's too small for a 24-player server.

[Jesus_Faction]

[quote="Plinko";p="180159"]

Toy Fort remains contraversial - it brings in players who typically don't stick around for other maps.

[/quote]

the same could be said of turbine and to a lesser extent freight

[Grapedrink]

boo tv2, it's inferior to tv8 and tvXIV

[Guardian]

[quote="Jesus_Faction";p="180171"][quote="Plinko";p="180159"]

Toy Fort remains contraversial - it brings in players who typically don't stick around for other maps.

[/quote]

the same could be said of turbine and to a lesser extent freight[/quote]

It still doesn't change the fact ti's unpopular amongst the seeders

[Masakari]

Unpopular for the seeders and unpopular in general are two separate things. Ultimately, the goal here should be a good combination of having a good selection of maps and being able to keep the server seeded longer than just whenever Villians are around - and while that is a challenge, I think it's fully within the realm of what this community is capable of.

That said, I think this time around with the revival of customs, it'd be nice to keep a few things in mind (Again, I'm just throwing this out here for my view of a good server):

• Don't make a solid template for map types: The way I see it, demanding that you have 4 5CP maps, 3 payload, etc. at all times is going to force you to compromise. I can understand the need for variety, but there are going to be points in time where on any given week there may be 7 great payload maps released and no CTF maps. Yes, have a variety, but make sure that good maps get on the server while they're new and popular.
• Make sure the good Villian-made maps get on the voting: Assuming that the map doesn't have any major flaws in it, make sure that we get villian made content on there. This is the perfect server to showcase their work!
• Aim for the general mass: Most maps will never have 100% perfect balance between the two teams (Heck, most stock maps don't!), but if they're fun to play with a bunch of people, then make sure they're on the list. That being said, I understand that you can't gauge fun based on running through the map yourself, but there is a way to get a map on another server and do a quick 20-minute test with a bunch of people to see how well it plays in a group without putting it on the rotation!
• Stay current......: One of the hardest things about keeping a custom server relevant is the fact that you need to stay on top of all the new maps being released. Obvious, as I think you guys have done a good job of that in the past.
• ....but don't forget the past!: A lot of villians have fond memories of some of the older customs, namely mach4, toy_fort possibly, and even roswell. To keep a couple of those classic maps on those rotations/votelists would make a lot of people happy!

Remember, this isn't a server intend for a select group of people, this is a server intended for all of us! Yes, it's impossible to please everyone all the time, but we've got a great group of people around here that will help you guys out with seeding, map testing, and all of that other fun stuff. That's what makes this place so great!

[Guardian]

I think the key problem when it comes to deciding whether or not to keep a "popular" custom usually comes down to "flash and flare" vs "substance".

Flare usually demands on the coolness of the map. How different does it look from the rest of the maps, does it have cool gameplay features, is it an old map that carries nostalgia.

Substance demands balance. Is it balanced for each team, for each class? Does the gameplay slow down at certain points? Is chaotic or does the player feel like he has control over the match.

Usually the best maps we have on the server usually have a balance of both. Yukon wins the vote probably more often then any other map because it has a distinct alpine style that's even different from most other alpine maps, it plays like no other map and it's extremely well balanced class-wise. Even those picky comp players like it.

A lot of debate usually surrounds maps that either have a lot of flash but little substance.

Toy Fort is the perfect example. It's unique, there's still no map like it after all these years, it plays like no other map, there's fun stuff to do like going on the bed. That's what makes it popular.

However it's terribly balanced. It's extremely difficult for spies and scouts and the explosive classes are extremely powerful on it. It also stalements, a lot. It can go back and forth forever before the timer runs out or an admin has to switch it.

Usually maps like this have a cult following (see warpath) but often they don't like to play other maps and even worse they won't come back to the ville afterwords (they only tend to stay on servers that always play their map). That's why I think keeping them is usually a bad idea.

Usually aiming for substance sometimes may not attract a lot of pubbers initially but it does keep people coming back when they realize that the customs selection is very thoughtful. I think that's what were aiming for here.


As for the old school customs a lot of them I hated a while ago and still hate today (see corporation). Some might deserve a comeback though like Mach4.... especially since finding good custom ctf maps is impossible (we had to force a villun to make a good one).

[Supreveio]

If we're keeping DBHeights on the server, there's a new version of it now. http://www.fpsbanana.com/maps/99440

But I personally hope that it gets removed.

[Nick Mame]

Our first act on maps was to remove the map templates. Most of us agree that was a terrible idea that limited our map choices. We're going to try to keep a good balance of the different game modes, but we won't remove a good map because it's over the limit or add a bad map because we need more variety.

After camping trip, TheVille maps should all be on the server. The reason it was off for so long was (I hear) because Ian wanted to finish up some fine details before putting it out on a server. If I'm mistaken there, that's at least what the majority of us came to believe.

We've abducted an excel slave to use the map ratings to classify the maps based on popularity. While I can't promise the most popular maps will be on the server, I can say that unpopular maps will be replaced.

We haven't yet decided how we're going to handle map selections. Right now we thought we'd abduct the most active map lurkers on the forum and create a team to handle finding new maps that seem playable. If that does happen, I'll be sure the team is open for all who are interested to prevent one type of player from dominating all the map selections.

The classic map selection should be a natural extension of the previous point. The people most interested in the server will be on the committee and ensure that the map selection suits the major interests in the server. We're starting with a list of relatively bland maps (even by our standards, most of the maps I posted are becoming old and boring) because they are so neutral. I've tried to invite a more diverse crowd of people by seeding with irregular off-rotation maps before and never received a strong respond. So presuming the TV2 seeders will be mostly TV2 regulars, I'd like a starting map selection which encourages them to stick with it. As the server becomes more stable, or as others start to get involved in the server, the map selection will shift away from being so neutral.


Turbine right now is the most popular map on TV2 according to map ratings. We aren't trying to remove it because it's a bad map but because it's always been on the server as a placeholder. It should have always been understood it would be removed one day to make room on the server for more interesting customs. And given that Camping Trip plays quite similar to Turbine, it seems natural to replace turbine with it.

I guess the dominating argument against it is that chaos is a terrible map and should be removed instead of turbine. A lot of people will agree with that. We were planning on replacing chaos before the other maps on the proposed rotation.

So the best compromise I can offer would be: replace chaos and Camping Trip and in a week or two replace turbine with a new custom. But one day turbine will be removed for the same reason hoodoo and steel were removed: it can't really be called a custom anymore.

If you want to argue for official customs you're welcome to. However, I think it's safe to say that turbine and fastlane are of such high quality and so popular in the community that they attract players interested in the map instead of customs. People come to the server to play that map instead of to play on the server, which I think is a crowd that would be best avoided for now if the customs are too have any longevity.


But we're not in control of the server - we're just trying to mediate the interests of its players with the administration. So everything here is merely the reasoning behind the decisions we're proposing rather than a mandate of what must be. Enough debate could easily change most of what I've said here.

[Plinko]

I am glad to see people are interested, I was getting worried about TV2 lately.

I've started crunching numbers based on the status of voting so we can baseline popularity. Obviously, popularity in rating (lets start off differentiating between rating and voting!) should not be the sole determining criterion for deciding what is in voting and what is out, but it's good to start with numbers to have a good discussion point.

This is a simple table I made by typing the map ratings of all the maps in voting, plus a few other maps of interest. Please click here to open the table in Google Docs. I will keep this up monthly by tabulating the new votes and seeing if we're seeing a big shift in any maps and so we can compare new maps to old/standards.

I'm going to review the high level here.

First of all, there are a few highly popular maps and a few maps that fare considerably poorer than average. No maps in the rotation have a negative (more negatives than positives) rating. I'd like to think that's because maps don't get in the ratings unless they're pretty playable and the ratings reflect that. Some of the less positively reviewed maps are still in beta stages and we should encourage the mapper to keep on tweaking and improving, not just drop them without careful consideration.

Second of all, I'm not getting into statistical significance but as you know, less votes means we know less about people's opinions about the map. Plus, because we vote maps to play from 5 semi-random choices, popular maps also get voted in a lot.

Thirdly, I scored all sorts of rankings in the doc, but I'm going to discuss the rating I think is most indicative - which is +/- % (total 4 and 5 ratings - total 1 and 2 ratings/total ratings).

Harvest 40%*
Turbine 35%
Freight 32%+
Mach4 29%*
Halfacre 28%
Frontier 28%*
Observatory4 28%*
Stovepipe 22%
DesertFortress 19%
Yukon 19%+
Furnace 14%
Chaos 13%
Silvertrail l 13%+
Follower 13%
Borax 12%*+
Waste 11%
Avantiville 7% (b27 only)
Abordight 4 1%*
Rotation 21%

* Maps have fewer than 200 ratings
+ These are totals of multiple versions in recent voting.

Things I think I'd like to say based on the above:

1. Freight and Halfacre were the most consistently well-scored customs maps, but Turbine beat them in just about every possible category. This is why we're looking so hard for good CTF maps! I think we need to consider keeping it for a while longer.

2. I think we might be suffering from 5CP fatigue. Follower and Waste are much lower than you'd think given how often they win votes. Yukon's ratings have been diminishing as new versions have come been released (even though I think that map is improving with each release candidate). Desertfortress also fares a lot more poorly than it gets votes.

3. I don't know what I can learn from Harvest. Storm was also extremely well-reviewed but was hardly ever voted in. . . that might be a big factor (ie they only get rated when there's a lot of people wanting to play it in the server).

4. Avantiville has been all over (some versions were very positive, b27 has not fared as well and actually has some recent votes), I expect once he gets closer to final we'll have better reviews. I think Borax and Furnace also have a lot of potential to improve from their current low ratings because they just need some work.

5. Observatory continues to rate well, but is hardly played lately. I am looking into the possibility of studying vote totals as well which may be useful. I agree this is a good candidate for a break from voting.

6. Frontier was the only map to show up in both highly negative and positive review scoring. I've still not played this so I can't speculate as to why this is.


To address a few other things:

I think we really should re-consider Toy-Fort, we do need to draw people in and hopefully, given a quality rotation, some of those people will stay.

I don't think the opinions of one or two highly vocal people should rule, but the fact is, a customs server without a group of dedicated seeders is going to be a dead server. I think the old TV2 group gritted through a lot of mediocre maps in the interest of keeping it a fun place to play - meaning one with lots of players that enjoy custom maps, too.

I think we need to keep the new maps in voting to a minimum (ie only after a serious test of them with a bunch of players!) , downloading new maps is always going to drive some people away, so keeping a stabler rotation is a necessary evil.

Lastly, one thing I don't know is done enough, is we should make our voices a little stronger at custom map sites. maybe some of you are already reviewing and posting in their forums, but getting TV2 some pub in places like FPS Banana and TFMaps.net might be a great way to let people who already are interested in customs to check us out.

[Jesus_Faction]

Plinko is right about toy fort. It was the first map i played on tv2 and the reason i initially kept coming back.

Also, the map can be set to end on time so that it wont stalemate forever, guardian

[Nick Mame]

We have a lot of CP maps. If Toy Fort is to be considered, I think it should replace something.

Follower, Waste and Desert Fortress are the weakest CP maps right now. Desert Fortress has a different format and therefore should probably stay for variety. Between follower and waste is a tough call. How would you two fit Toy Fort into the rotation?


Right now we're looking at:
* cp_freight (favorite)
* cp_follower
* cp_waste
* cp_yukon (new release)

* ctf_avantiville (TheVille)
* cp_silvertrail
* cp_furnace

* pl_stovepipe
* pl_halfacre
* pl_mill

* ctf_camping_trip (TheVille)
* ctf_turbine (favorite)

* cp_desert_fortress
* arena_harvest (variety)

I think mill is a strong addition that adds some alpine variety and interesting new flavor to the payload section. The other maps without a comment following their name I am all lukewarm about.

[doobop]

Bit of a tangent, but one thing I'd like to see is attack/defend maps limited to two rounds (attack once, defend once). After spending 25-30 minutes grinding out an offensive push and defensive stand, a new map is much more appealing than to repeat. I'd rather play another map or two during my play session rather than extend a map to 45-50 minutes.

As for maps, how about replacing the cp version of waste with the payload; I'd like to try that one again since it's a different game play style.

[Jesus_Faction]

[quote="doobop";p="180291"]Bit of a tangent, but one thing I'd like to see is attack/defend maps limited to two rounds (attack once, defend once). After spending 25-30 minutes grinding out an offensive push and defensive stand, a new map is much more appealing than to repeat. I'd rather play another map or two during my play session rather than extend a map to 45-50 minutes.
[/quote]

Yes, to this. I mentioned this before as well.



Also, I'd be willing to trade waste for toy fort