steam update

[knight725]

The biggest think they need to do to the BB imo is increase the angle of "back" to be about 90 degrees. Right now I feel like your angle of attack needs to be within 5 degrees of dead center to get crits, which is fairly impossible on people who aren't standing still/running in a straight line/huddled around the cart. That would make it so ambushes were actually effective and didn't just end with you exploding in some horrible fashion.

I think a BB that crit fairly frequently from behind without the 50 HP is a situational weapon I would use when said situation called for it, which is Valve's goal with these weapons in general.

[Devastator]

[quote="Super Steveio";p="110908"]

Players killing themselves will now give a kill credit to the last enemy who damaged them

[/quote]

Damn update i used to kill myself always just to do not give them points. now i hate more the pyros ........

[Torven]

[quote="knight725";p="111329"]The biggest think they need to do to the BB imo is increase the angle of "back" to be about 90 degrees. Right now I feel like your angle of attack needs to be within 5 degrees of dead center to get crits, which is fairly impossible on people who aren't standing still/running in a straight line/huddled around the cart. That would make it so ambushes were actually effective and didn't just end with you exploding in some horrible fashion.

I think a BB that crit fairly frequently from behind without the 50 HP is a situational weapon I would use when said situation called for it, which is Valve's goal with these weapons in general.[/quote]

They have to strike a balance between making it viable and making it too easy. I think the standard crit chance on a weapon is somewhere around 5%. If an average pyro can land a crit every time he is remotely behind someone, that is going to unbalance things rather severly. At the same time, if only an expert can make the shot, then there is no point and people will never use it. If they can find an angle that an average pyro can nail about a third of the time, that is still going to give them an average crit chance 6-7 times normal whenever they get behind an enemy (in the general sense, not the specific area defined as "behind" for the BB crit).

[knight725]

[quote="Torven";p="111340"]
[quote="knight725";p="111329"]The biggest think they need to do to the BB imo is increase the angle of "back" to be about 90 degrees. Right now I feel like your angle of attack needs to be within 5 degrees of dead center to get crits, which is fairly impossible on people who aren't standing still/running in a straight line/huddled around the cart. That would make it so ambushes were actually effective and didn't just end with you exploding in some horrible fashion.

I think a BB that crit fairly frequently from behind without the 50 HP is a situational weapon I would use when said situation called for it, which is Valve's goal with these weapons in general.[/quote]

They have to strike a balance between making it viable and making it too easy. I think the standard crit chance on a weapon is somewhere around 5%. If an average pyro can land a crit every time he is remotely behind someone, that is going to unbalance things rather severly. At the same time, if only an expert can make the shot, then there is no point and people will never use it. If they can find an angle that an average pyro can nail about a third of the time, that is still going to give them an average crit chance 6-7 times normal whenever they get behind an enemy (in the general sense, not the specific area defined as "behind" for the BB crit).
[/quote]

True true, I think it basically requires playtesting to get a good angle. I don't want it to be the spyesque 180 degree = back, but I do thing the current value is far too small. It'd be like having to hit someone in the eye with the sniper rifle for it to count as a headshot. You'd get it every once in a while, but it really isn't anything you can depend on.

Also crit ranges from 5% to 20% depending on how many people you've killed/how much damage you've done (don't remember which) recently. Thats why good soldiers just blow everyone off the face of the earth with crit rockets.

[Thorn]

the other thing is that the pyro's ability to ambush is by and large determined by the map that is being played. what the cloak does for the spy is make him able to get behind the enemy line, regardless of the map. I feel like in order for any ambush type character you need some way to get behind the enemy in the first place. I don't think a cloak would be good, but what about a camouflage sneak or something? if you are standing still you become transparent or something.

That is probably a stretch, but something is seriously wrong with the design of a weapon when people immediately stop using it because it doesn't give health bonus anymore, that is a sure sign that the BB needs some serious attention.

we could kind of look at it like the "heavy problem" that valve posted on their blog. put some goals out there that we assume valve wants:

1. encourage the "ambush" aspect of the pyro play style.

2. avoid enhancing the pyro "charge tactics" in the process (kind of like make heavies better on their own, but don't make them even stronger with the medic)

those are the 2 biggest points I can think of, I am sure there are more.

[Torven]

[quote="knight725";p="111345"][quote="Torven";p="111340"]
[quote="knight725";p="111329"]The biggest think they need to do to the BB imo is increase the angle of "back" to be about 90 degrees. Right now I feel like your angle of attack needs to be within 5 degrees of dead center to get crits, which is fairly impossible on people who aren't standing still/running in a straight line/huddled around the cart. That would make it so ambushes were actually effective and didn't just end with you exploding in some horrible fashion.

I think a BB that crit fairly frequently from behind without the 50 HP is a situational weapon I would use when said situation called for it, which is Valve's goal with these weapons in general.[/quote]

They have to strike a balance between making it viable and making it too easy. I think the standard crit chance on a weapon is somewhere around 5%. If an average pyro can land a crit every time he is remotely behind someone, that is going to unbalance things rather severly. At the same time, if only an expert can make the shot, then there is no point and people will never use it. If they can find an angle that an average pyro can nail about a third of the time, that is still going to give them an average crit chance 6-7 times normal whenever they get behind an enemy (in the general sense, not the specific area defined as "behind" for the BB crit).
[/quote]

True true, I think it basically requires playtesting to get a good angle. I don't want it to be the spyesque 180 degree = back, but I do thing the current value is far too small. It'd be like having to hit someone in the eye with the sniper rifle for it to count as a headshot. You'd get it every once in a while, but it really isn't anything you can depend on.

Also crit ranges from 5% to 20% depending on how many people you've killed/how much damage you've done (don't remember which) recently. Thats why good soldiers just blow everyone off the face of the earth with crit rockets.[/quote]

It's based off kills. I don't know if they altered the mechanics for the standard crit rate for the BB, or if it would still have that 5-20% chance in addition to the backburn.

[knight725]

It still has the normal crit as far as I know. I can never tell with rapid fire weapons with critstreaks instead of oneshot crits, since my screen has them critting far more than they actually are.

[Reipin]

something is seriously wrong with the design of a weapon when people immediately stop using it because it doesn't give health bonus anymore

This basically sums it up for me.

SU, I won't adapt, I don't play pyro really. It's not like I am arguing about this because "my" class got nerfed. I'm arguing about it because the BB is useless and it's all becaue of a vocal minority.

There was nothing wrong with the 50 health imo.

[Thorn]

hmm maybe I didn't state it properly. I guess what I was trying to say was, if the only reason people are using the BB is because of the 50 hp, then valve should look at what the BB is supposed to accomplish when it is used properly, and encourage that use instead of the "I am invincible 50 hp rush attack" use.

I think it has been clear that the last iteration of their design failed, and it is especially clear when so many people are dropping the BB since it has no more HP.

I think however, that having the 50 hp, as it currently stands, is more balanced than just taking it out all together, they need to compensate somehow for the 50 hp loss on that weapon, and add something that encourages more "sneaky" pyro play.

So, I agree that adding 50 hp to the backburner was a mistake, I also think it is a mistake to take it out before they know how to fix the problem. I have actually seen a very nice split of AB pyros and BB pyros, which is a sign of a balanced weapon choice, the problem is players are not using it the way the designers intended them to be used.

[Portland_BEER]

@Thorn:
wow, well said.

and for an ambushy* pyro... perhaps defense with the BB during setup, much like an engie planing the position of a SG, gives the most opportunity for a sneak attack.

now where is that jetpack?

[Buzzy Beetle]

[quote="Thorn";p="111380"]
hmm maybe I didn't state it properly. I guess what I was trying to say was, if the only reason people are using the BB is because of the 50 hp, then valve should look at what the BB is supposed to accomplish when it is used properly, and encourage that use instead of the "I am invincible 50 hp rush attack" use.

I think it has been clear that the last iteration of their design failed, and it is especially clear when so many people are dropping the BB since it has no more HP.

I think however, that having the 50 hp, as it currently stands, is more balanced than just taking it out all together, they need to compensate somehow for the 50 hp loss on that weapon, and add something that encourages more "sneaky" pyro play.

So, I agree that adding 50 hp to the backburner was a mistake, I also think it is a mistake to take it out before they know how to fix the problem. I have actually seen a very nice split of AB pyros and BB pyros, which is a sign of a balanced weapon choice, the problem is players are not using it the way the designers intended them to be used.
[/quote]

[Reipin]

worst pic ever buzzy

[Torven]

They don't need to compensate pyros for the loss of the hp bonus any more than they had to compensate soldiers and demos for the reduction in ammo capacity or medics for the changes they have made to the ubercharge (faster drain on multiple targets, changing weapons no longer saves a deployed charge).

The alternative weapons are just that, alternatives. They are not meant as the be all, end all in every situation. The complaints I have seen from pyros about the BB are remarkably similar to the complaints I heard about the Kritzkrieg when it came out (particularly after it was announced to replace the overhealer). Funny thing is, the Kritzkrieg still has its uses, and after the initial complaints about how useless it was, people figured out where and when to use it.

[Clay Pigeon]

Valve is going to fail at making people want to do grindan gaems for the new weapons if they arent upgrades. The only ones I ever used were upgrades. bloodsucker is more useful than the regular aidsgun, and the backburner was more versatile than the regular flamer. No one worth their salt uses the SOSgun or the shootmeimkritchargingsomeonegun, and the melee weapons are uprades depending entirely on playstyle.

[Thorn]

[quote="Clay Pigeon";p="111437"]
and the melee weapons are uprades depending entirely on playstyle.
[/quote]

I think this should be the goal for all weapon alternatives, they should be equally viable and they should garner to a different playstyle.



[quote="Buzzy Beetle";p="111385"]

[/quote]

does that mean I have to start dodging potted plants being thrown at me now? thats was SO impossible. LOL Karate Champ brings back memories