Demos for Examples?

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Demos for Examples?

Post by Infusions » Fri Sep 19, 2008 1:24 pm

People usually have video tutorials and such showing others how to play classes well, tips and tricks, etc. I was also told on another forum a long time ago if you ever wanted to get good at something, you should play and study other experienced players, or you could spectate those experienced players.

However, I would never want ten people just spectating others on TheVille and filling up space that could be used for actual players.

So I was thinking, what about demos? Maybe people really good at their classes could join a match when a lot of the regulars are on or something, start recording, and after the end of the round, post up the demo so people can download it and watch it and watch how the person plays and how they aim and little tidbits of their strategies. That way, it'd be like watching a tutorial, but all the deaths and mistakes wouldn't be cut out to make the person seem god-like and more like "Hey, this person can make simple mistakes just like anyone and learns from that!"

The person can even make a commentary over the video explaining certain things they did, why they're doing it, etc.

Like, if Buzzy was just constantly hopping while shooting rockets and she would talk over the video after recording and say "NOW SEE, I USUALLY LIKE TO HOP AS SOLDIER BECAUSE IT HELPS WITH ROCKET SHOOTING blahblahblah i honestly don't know anything about soldiers ignore this quote". Things like that.

Or even new players could record themselves and ask experienced players to look over some of their recordings on matches and comment on them. I do know someone did that for newer Spy players and I ended up watching them and learning tips and tricks from that.

Like, if a new Heavy player would always spin his barrel before going in a new area, some experienced Heavy player here could be all "What I like to do, and what I recommend doing, is usually jumping sharply to the left or right or whichever direction you're going in and then spinning my gun in the air so I can move quickly and shoot instantly, rather than warning my enemies of my arrival and making all the snipers prepare their dot, etc etc."

I have no idea if anybody would be willing do things like that. I mean, it really doesn't take any work to just record a demo and upload it online, but I don't know how many people would want others to see their secrets and stuff.

Just thought I would throw some ideas out!

OH AND ALSO: if people were willing to do this, I'd think it'd be totally bad ass if several ville people would join a server all at once while it was half full and start recording all at once and then upload them so we can see different perspectives of the same match.

I used to do it with Flobee and Calculon and it was hella fun.

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Re: Demos for Examples?

Post by TTHREAZ » Fri Sep 19, 2008 1:30 pm

I would be up for this. The main problem is the fact that each major update to TF2 breaks the demos. You'd have to convert it to a video to keep it around and that takes quite a bit more effort than just uploading a demo.

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Post by Infusions » Fri Sep 19, 2008 1:35 pm

[quote="TTHREAZ";p="120997"]
I would be up for this. The main problem is the fact that each major update to TF2 breaks the demos. You'd have to convert it to a video to keep it around and that takes quite a bit more effort than just uploading a demo.
[/quote]

While it would be true that if you had recorded a Medic or Pyro demo before the update it would be different from one from today, some of the tips would still remain the same.

Like if Carpe (I LIKE USING OTHER PEOPLE IN MY EXAMPLES) had made a Pyro video before the updates and one after, they would probably still be very similar in the fighting style and still help others out a great deal.

As time goes by, if people felt like it, could make new videos showing off tricks with the new weapons. Like using the airblast to your advantage and things like that.
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Re: Demos for Examples?

Post by Yahoo!! » Fri Sep 19, 2008 1:42 pm

Exactly

I explored the option of creating a video. The amount of effort involved is staggering.


The issues

-Actually getting the moment you are looking for. There are somethings that cannot be duplicated without the actual thing looking fake and losing its credibility. I don't like the idea of recording constantly and waiting for exact moment to catch the recording I need for my video. Some of these include a stab and sap of a tier 3 sentry which is almost impossible to get without a lot of luck.

-Once the demos are recorded, there is editing. Some of the stuff might not be as good as newer stuff you managed to record. Some stuff needs certain parts edited out and collated together to make it work.

-Adding sound/words. Do you include your voice? Do you include any music or just regular games sounds? What do you type? Is there a particular style to your presentation of the tutorial (where does the type go? What font? What is blurred out?) etc.

I do like the idea of a critique though of recordings. This wouldn't require the mind boggling editing. Of course the veteran in question should be nice with his answer and not necessarily destroy the confidence of a person.

The recording comparisons are very iffy. I do not like the idea of comparing it to others. However, I was pleasantly surprised people watch me during sudden death when I play spy.

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Re: Demos for Examples?

Post by TTHREAZ » Fri Sep 19, 2008 1:43 pm

No, I mean the demos literally won't play after each major update. If you're talking about making a video from recordings, then yes, they would be fine. I was talking about trying to watch recordings (demos) in-game.

EDIT: If you're just concerned with having people upload recordings of them playing like they normally do, that would be no problem. Yahoo has good points in that the more you want to teach something, the more staged things have to be.

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Post by Infusions » Fri Sep 19, 2008 1:54 pm

[quote="TTHREAZ";p="121006"]
No, I mean the demos literally won't play after each major update. If you're talking about making a video from recordings, then yes, they would be fine. I was talking about trying to watch recordings (demos) in-game.[/quote]

Oh, really? I had no idea. I recently just learned about recording demos in-game like, a month or a couple weeks ago or so. :0

What I sort of mean is a video like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xES17aki9Y

The person basically just recorded themself playing, turned it into a format usable for uploading, and then recorded afterwards while watching himself play and saying all the stuff he did and why he did them.

I'm not really talking about "video tutorials" with all the fancy editting and music inserted and all the text that fades in and out explaining thing and stuff like that. It's basically just like.

Recording yourself play, don't edit it at all, and comment on your own video. Or just record yourself playing and either upload the .dem file somewhere or upload it as a video link.

Personally, I like watching .dem files better than the video links because I'm able to see the game as it was actually played: full screen, things like that. And I can go back and watch it in third person view and see people that were coming up from behind and say "ooohh so THAT'S how that person ended up killing him!" and things like that.
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Re: Demos for Examples?

Post by TTHREAZ » Fri Sep 19, 2008 2:09 pm

Yeah, I'd have no problem recording myself playing Scout and uploading the .dem recording. The biggest problem with the voice recording is the fact that it doesn't record your voice, just the voices of everyone else.

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Post by Infusions » Fri Sep 19, 2008 2:15 pm

[quote="TTHREAZ";p="121013"]
Yeah, I'd have no problem recording myself playing Scout and uploading the .dem recording. The biggest problem with the voice recording is the fact that it doesn't record your voice, just the voices of everyone else.
[/quote]

Oh yeah, I know that (Which I'm so happy it does sometimes because my VOICE IS SO DORKY). I would mean like. After the video is recorded and all that stuff is done, to go back, open Goldwave or Audacity or whatever you have and record yourself talking as you're watching your own video and comment on what you're doing. Then put the voice recording over the video.
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Re: Demos for Examples?

Post by TTHREAZ » Fri Sep 19, 2008 2:29 pm

Now you're starting to get more complicated. If you want audio over the recording, you're gonna have to rip the recording and compile it into a video clip. If you're going to make a video clip, you might as well edit it. :P

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Post by Infusions » Fri Sep 19, 2008 2:55 pm

[quote="TTHREAZ";p="121027"]
Now you're starting to get more complicated. If you want audio over the recording, you're gonna have to rip the recording and compile it into a video clip. If you're going to make a video clip, you might as well edit it. :P
[/quote]

I dunno, I would think just like, uploading the file into something simple like Movie Maker and slapping your commentary over the video wouldn't take that much time. :0

Like, probably under a day's time, whereas a full editted tutorial might take a week depending on how much details you put in.
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Re: Demos for Examples?

Post by Nick Mame » Fri Sep 19, 2008 3:54 pm

A proper guide would take a lot of time. You'd have to come up with points which were generic enough to be useful a large majority of the time, as opposed to very specific instances which the viewer might only encounter once or twice. You'd then have to play for hours to get good footage of those points and hours more editing them into something organized and viewable.

A demo of a normal game wouldn't be a proper guide. It would contain very irrelevant information: how to kill this particular player on this particular map when they are in this particular situation. It would also contain a lot of 'respawning in...' and quite a bit of 'I wonder when they'll attack the point'. They might be fun to watch, but they are not helpful.

A demo from the inexperienced person to a veteran might be useful, I don't know. That, however, would require quite a bit of time commitment from both sides.


I still say play the game. If you want to see how someone plays, join their team. If you want to improve in a particular class, play against them. Read the written guides here to figure out what's good and what's bad form, then spend several hundred hours playing until you develop your own style.
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Re: Demos for Examples?

Post by TTHREAZ » Fri Sep 19, 2008 4:22 pm

That's what I did with Scout. I have over 100 hours of play time with it and everything I learned was from just playing. I barely touched the class in my first few months of playing TF2 but once I decided to make an effort, I played it more and got better and better.

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Post by mr_s » Fri Sep 19, 2008 7:07 pm

rofl.

cant give you any advice on demo-ing coz the fact that i will b giving me secrets away

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Post by Thorn » Sat Sep 20, 2008 4:20 am

I think the ideal is to give people enough information so that they can start thinking for themselves, its hard to spoon-feed everyone entire play styles a-z, its way too complex and way too much information for any one human being to take in.

What is valuable however, is getting glimpses into how really good people play their game, not to "know what to do against x class, on y map, in z location" but get a window into the decision making process that player utilized in that certain situation.

In this regard I think watching demos of hand picked clips can be useful, just as more of an eyeopener.

of course nothing is a substitute for playing the game.

Another thing recently that was sort of an "eyeopener" for me is playing the arena matches, and actually being forced to watch people play when I was sitting out between rounds. It was really interesting, not because I learned alot from their expert play, but I noticed specific spots on the map that people didn't bother to check or certain routes they kept taking over, and over again.
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Re: Demos for Examples?

Post by Grapedrink » Sat Sep 20, 2008 3:25 pm

also, demos don't seem to be the best for precision classes like sniper or spy, because I watch demos or spectate other snipers, and it looks like they are shooting 5 feet away from people and getting head shots or they are 30 feet behind someone and back stabing them kinda thing
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