About Prebuilding

A place to discuss strategies and methods of playing
arfy4
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About Prebuilding

Post by arfy4 » Wed May 23, 2012 12:17 am

I've seen so many missed opportunities because the engineer on our team is back by the spawn with all his buildings. No matter how much you think this helps, it is not very effective. One of the worst cases I've seen of this is engineers on RED on Dustbowl building sentries near the spawn during setup. You do have enough time to fully upgrade it during setup, and you will be almost guaranteed to lose the first point faster if you build a sentry near the spawn rather than where it should be. A sentry is much more effective near the point than it ever will be near the spawn. There is not that much of an advantage of time if you build it near spawn either. Also if you build it in a place where it should be placed and then it is destroyed, it is very easy to rebuild it. Building a sentry by the spawn, especially when defending on an attack defend map, is very counter productive to your team winning. This is a very annoying thing that far to many people do, and I do believe that if you are going to play Engineer you need to get your sentries out where they'll kill people trying to capture your point, not where the opposing team won't even see them until they've already capped all your points.
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Re: About Prebuilding

Post by The Spanish Inquisition » Wed May 23, 2012 2:09 am

When all you have up is a tele exit then prebuilding a gun or dispenser to take through while the entrance is also building is effective multitasking. Other than this scenario, prebuilding is not necessary I think.
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Re: About Prebuilding

Post by TheCarpe » Wed May 23, 2012 2:13 am

That in and of itself is something of a gambit, as an exit alone is likely not in a terribly safe place. Someone finds and destroys it before you're done "multitasking" and you've just wasted a lot of time.

I will say this until I'm blue in the face: There is never a reason to prebuild. Ever. I would always prefer a level 1 actually defending something immediately than a level 3 that may not get there in time at all.
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Re: About Prebuilding

Post by Boss Llama » Wed May 23, 2012 9:24 am

Just say "No" to pre-building.
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Re: About Prebuilding

Post by TheCarpe » Wed May 23, 2012 9:35 am

Where's that sig I had for a while?

Edit: Found it!

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Re: About Prebuilding

Post by The Domer » Wed May 23, 2012 10:06 am

I can't find it right now, but there is a pretty good youtube video showing exactly how much slower prebuilding is than regular building. I believe it was on gorge, and iirc the person making the video did it in split-screen fashion so you could compare the rates at which things are going up.

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Re: About Prebuilding

Post by Zork Nemesis » Wed May 23, 2012 10:22 am

Call me crazy, but for my college comp 1 class, I acctually wrote an argumentive essay about this subject going against the strategy. I somehow managed to draw this subject out over four pages, but there's a fair amount of information in the essay that talks about what the game is and game mechanics for people who aren't aware, such as my instructor.
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Re: About Prebuilding

Post by Cpt._Keyes » Wed May 23, 2012 10:35 am

Zork Nemesis wrote:Call me crazy, but for my college comp 1 class, I acctually wrote an argumentive essay about this subject going against the strategy. I somehow managed to draw this subject out over four pages, but there's a fair amount of information in the essay that talks about what the game is and game mechanics for people who aren't aware, such as my instructor.
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Re: About Prebuilding

Post by Plinko » Wed May 23, 2012 11:16 am

I sometimes prebuild my dispenser by dropping it on the way out of spawn to pick up later, but I end up destroying it and redropping it most of the time anyway rather than running back for the stupid thing unless I happen to get killed and can take it trough the tele.
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Re: About Prebuilding

Post by YoullNeverWalkAlone » Wed May 23, 2012 11:26 am

How about working with another engi to upgrade your tele and then he uses your tele to take his prebuilt gun through to the exit? Corky and I have used this on a few maps like badwater. I lay down an entrance, he upgrades it while I run forward and place the exit in one of the usual spots. I then proceed to build my stuff where ever. ON Badwater, I will usually put the exit by the first point and let Corky set his gear up there when he comes through the exit with a prebuilt dispenser or gun (usually dispenser, there is plenty of time to still get a gun up after you don't have to worry about going to get the metal). I go up top and build my gun and dispenser. at some point he will drop off his tele exit by me so that we have 2 fairly far apart.

Can this kind of prebuilding work? It is a pretty long walk from red spawn to the front on that map, so that upgraded tele is a huge benefit, as is having 2 of them going to 2 different places and not forcing our entire team onto one spot.

Prebuilding on Dustbowl has to be my least favorite thing to see (aside from Spanish). There is plenty of time to get your stuff built up where ever you do it to defend the first point. Probably just as annoying is people who don't bother to defend the first point and just go straight to the second one.
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Re: About Prebuilding

Post by Fano » Wed May 23, 2012 12:21 pm

You'llNeverWalkAlone wrote:How about working with another engi to upgrade your tele and then he uses your tele to take his prebuilt gun through to the exit? Corky and I have used this on a few maps like badwater. I lay down an entrance, he upgrades it while I run forward and place the exit in one of the usual spots. I then proceed to build my stuff where ever. ON Badwater, I will usually put the exit by the first point and let Corky set his gear up there when he comes through the exit with a prebuilt dispenser or gun (usually dispenser, there is plenty of time to still get a gun up after you don't have to worry about going to get the metal). I go up top and build my gun and dispenser. at some point he will drop off his tele exit by me so that we have 2 fairly far apart.

Can this kind of prebuilding work? It is a pretty long walk from red spawn to the front on that map, so that upgraded tele is a huge benefit, as is having 2 of them going to 2 different places and not forcing our entire team onto one spot.

Prebuilding on Dustbowl has to be my least favorite thing to see (aside from Spanish). There is plenty of time to get your stuff built up where ever you do it to defend the first point. Probably just as annoying is people who don't bother to defend the first point and just go straight to the second one.
On a map like badwater there is so much metal lying around that the difference is negligible apart from the upgraded teleporter, which is always a plus, if you're working with another engineer like this though, this is ok, solo prebuilding efforts usually fail.

Speaking of badwater, to those who build their nest inside the small cubby hole by the tracks of the first point: STOP IT, it is the worst spot to build on and can always be taken care of very easily without an uber. A much better spot is the area above the tunnel where the big ammo pack is, if you hold that area (maybe with a pyro or another support class) while your heavy classes hold the left, it will be much harder for the enemy team to take it down without an uber, not to mention it's far enough from their spawn that they will have probably used their first uber or two coming out of the gates and they'll have to waste more time building up another one.
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Re: About Prebuilding

Post by Boss Llama » Wed May 23, 2012 12:48 pm

You'llNeverWalkAlone wrote:How about working with another engi to upgrade your tele and then he uses your tele to take his prebuilt gun through to the exit? Corky and I have used this on a few maps like badwater. I lay down an entrance, he upgrades it while I run forward and place the exit in one of the usual spots. I then proceed to build my stuff where ever. ON Badwater, I will usually put the exit by the first point and let Corky set his gear up there when he comes through the exit with a prebuilt dispenser or gun (usually dispenser, there is plenty of time to still get a gun up after you don't have to worry about going to get the metal). I go up top and build my gun and dispenser. at some point he will drop off his tele exit by me so that we have 2 fairly far apart.

Can this kind of prebuilding work? It is a pretty long walk from red spawn to the front on that map, so that upgraded tele is a huge benefit, as is having 2 of them going to 2 different places and not forcing our entire team onto one spot.

Prebuilding on Dustbowl has to be my least favorite thing to see (aside from Spanish). There is plenty of time to get your stuff built up where ever you do it to defend the first point. Probably just as annoying is people who don't bother to defend the first point and just go straight to the second one.
It is slightly less repugnant, if it's a second engineer arriving at a location already fully established and held by a first engineer, but there are still a couple questions to ask, and it's still usually a bad idea.

1) Is the position you are headed to worth having an SG and dispenser in? If the position is worth putting stuff in, it is worth putting the level 1 version of stuff in. If the answer is no, why are you putting stuff there? Remember, things other than SGs didn't used to be able to be upgraded at all, and nothing could be moved. Maps are constructed to be entirely supported by level one dispensers, and guns under construction while fighting. If you don't get in position and start building, you are likely to lose the critical area because you have nothing there at all. Level 1 SG's have more than 166,000 kills in our current stat cycle - more than the dreaded Phlogistinator, and just behind the Direct Hit. A level one holds an area against scouts, spies, jumpers in both demo and soldier flavor, and even some others. Get the bloody thing built.

2) If high level gear is already present because you are planning to build in the same place as the first engineer... why are you doing that? Two engineers on top of each other is a horrible idea 95% of the time. Once in a while, if you're trying to get a pair of level 3 teleports up in the same position, it can be worthwhile, but in that case it's more important for you to go put the teleport up than it is to have an extra SG and dispenser - pre-building those costs time and is pointless. Hell, the first engineer's level 3 dispenser will actually feed you metal faster than you can use it, and because you aren't running in and out of spawn, you will get your teleport up faster than if you built at spawn and ported forward.

The only times moving gear is worthwhile, imo, are when it is incorrectly angled and just needs to be shimmied slightly in place, when you're pushing with a rolling front, or when you're going for a surprise build to put a gun covering a point you're capturing. In all of those cases, you aren't pre-building at spawn and taking a teleport - you are building at a combat location, and only moving it when the combat location shifts.

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TL;DR

Anything worth building will serve your team better by being built and upgraded on location than it will by being built to full level at spawn.
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Re: About Prebuilding

Post by Boss Llama » Wed May 23, 2012 1:17 pm

Sorry to double post, but my previous is already long, and this is a completely separate point.

I think one of the reasons people feel so compelled to pre-build is because they do their build order wrong. A lot of engies get to a location and their first instinct is to build a gun. If you are in a location with abundant metal, such as most good defensive positions, you can get away with this. If you are in a location without a metal spawn however, like many offensive positions... bad idea.

Build order in these situations should be Dispenser, Teleporter, Gun.

With SG-first build - you have 200 metal. If you run in to a location (let's say the offensive right tunnel on Dustbowl 2-2) and slap down a gun, you now have 70 metal - enough to do precisely nothing. You cannot build anything, nor upgrade anything. You have to either run a looooong way backwards to get metal, and then return, or you have to go forwards through the one-way door to get metal, probably suiciding. Either way, assuming you don't die horribly, you're looking at approximately 30 seconds to be back on location with a level 1 SG, ready to start construction on another item, or upgrade the first (assuming nobody took the metal and you have to wait for it to reappear).

With Disp, Tele, SG build - you have 200 metal. You run in to a location (same one) and place your dispenser, wrenching it to quick-build. That leaves you with 100 metal - not enough to do anything again. The moment that finishes building however, it gives you 25 metal, leaving you with 125 - exactly what you need for a teleporter. You immediately place the teleporter and wrench it up. Result - in 22 seconds you have a functioning dispenser and teleporter in a strategic location. Your teammates (prioritizing like all good teams with a level 1 teleport do) generously allow your heavies and soldiers to have priority. These guys arrive and are more flexible than an SG. Better yet, while you were wrenching your teleport, you gained a further 80 metal from your dispenser, and another 40 will result 4 seconds later, and every 5 seconds after that. Just 9 seconds after completing your teleport, you have enough to build the SG, which takes approximately 5 seconds to finish while wrenching. Thus, after 36 seconds, you have an operating level 1 of every type, and have 70 metal in reserve from your dispenser, which will continue to produce 40 metal every 5 seconds. Your team goes on to roll over the enemy, and you are hailed as official "Credit to Team." Presidential citations follow, leading to a life of luxury and bacon.

Let's compare:

Good build order: 36 seconds, level one SG, level one dispenser producing metal for use, level one teleport bringing allies to the fight.
SG first build order: 36 seconds to have a level 1 SG, and be approximately halfway through construction of something else.

Build order matters!
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Re: About Prebuilding

Post by YoullNeverWalkAlone » Wed May 23, 2012 3:22 pm

Alizee, using my Badwater example, tell me what you think of this strategy that I've worked with a couple of engi's (mostly Corky). I place tele entrance and he upgrades it while I run to cubby (that Fano hates) and place the exit. I then run to top right above tunnel (that Fano likes) and grab the metal while placing a dispenser. BY the time I wrench it and use up all that I have on it, the metal box is back and I can lay down a SG to cover the corner, but not be hit from the left side of the screen. I then continue to upgrade my stuff using my dispenser and the metal supply. While doing this my fellow engi is upgrading my tele and throws down an entrance and his dispenser at spawn. Once my tele is up to lvl 3, he takes his dispenser thru the tele and either leaves it in the cubby, or moves it to the left side behind the rocks. He then builds a SG behind the rocks, even if he left the dispenser in the cubby (there is metal and health right next to the rock, making this a good spot even with no dispenser). He runs over and puts his exit near my location once he has his sg up (this happens after the round has started, but usually well before anyone pushes up towards my spot). We now have the 2 flanks covered well, and have given the remainder of our team the ability to fight in the tunnel, hold the top right or whatever we need.

Corky and I kinda stumbled onto this by accident, but it has been pretty effective when we have done it. I can't think of a single time however that building at spawn as a solo engi has ever worked, nor have I really had any luck working with another engi on other maps to do anything other than upgrade a tele before setting up.
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Re: About Prebuilding

Post by The Spanish Inquisition » Wed May 23, 2012 3:43 pm

You'llNeverWalkAlone wrote:How about working with another engi to upgrade your tele and then he uses your tele to take his prebuilt gun through to the exit?
Yes, prebuilding warranted. Stage3 dustbowl is a painful walk. I was thinking of the new engie wrench(that I don't have) that teleports back to spawn. Lay down the entrance, dispenser and gun then proceed to exit location and build that. Wrenchiport back and take gear through twice.
You'llNeverWalkAlone wrote: Prebuilding on Dustbowl has to be my least favorite thing to see (aside from Spanish). There is plenty of time to get your stuff built up where ever you do it to defend the first point. Probably just as annoying is people who don't bother to defend the first point and just go straight to the second one.
Sharing metal with other engies is a factor. If I suspect blue is much stronger I will drop my dispenser at the second stage and move on to build my other gear at point 1. There is enough metal and fragged-weapons there when the fighting starts to not need it. Then when eventually overrun, fall back to the luxury of a fully stocked dispenser because there is NO METAL except a 40 box anywhere near the second point. That would be a prebuild that was not outside the spawn.
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