About Prebuilding

A place to discuss strategies and methods of playing
Zork Nemesis
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Re: About Prebuilding

Post by Zork Nemesis » Wed May 23, 2012 3:51 pm

The Spanish Inquisition wrote:Yes, prebuilding warranted. Stage3 dustbowl is a painful walk. I was thinking of the new engie wrench(that I don't have) that teleports back to spawn. Lay down the entrance, dispenser and gun then proceed to exit location and build that. Wrenchiport back and take gear through twice.
That wrench's drawback is that you can't pick up or move buildings though.
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Re: About Prebuilding

Post by Boss Llama » Wed May 23, 2012 4:54 pm

You'llNeverWalkAlone wrote:Alizee, using my Badwater example, tell me what you think of this strategy that I've worked with a couple of engi's (mostly Corky). I place tele entrance and he upgrades it while I run to cubby (that Fano hates) and place the exit. I then run to top right above tunnel (that Fano likes) and grab the metal while placing a dispenser. BY the time I wrench it and use up all that I have on it, the metal box is back and I can lay down a SG to cover the corner, but not be hit from the left side of the screen. I then continue to upgrade my stuff using my dispenser and the metal supply. While doing this my fellow engi is upgrading my tele and throws down an entrance and his dispenser at spawn. Once my tele is up to lvl 3, he takes his dispenser thru the tele and either leaves it in the cubby, or moves it to the left side behind the rocks. He then builds a SG behind the rocks, even if he left the dispenser in the cubby (there is metal and health right next to the rock, making this a good spot even with no dispenser). He runs over and puts his exit near my location once he has his sg up (this happens after the round has started, but usually well before anyone pushes up towards my spot). We now have the 2 flanks covered well, and have given the remainder of our team the ability to fight in the tunnel, hold the top right or whatever we need.

Corky and I kinda stumbled onto this by accident, but it has been pretty effective when we have done it. I can't think of a single time however that building at spawn as a solo engi has ever worked, nor have I really had any luck working with another engi on other maps to do anything other than upgrade a tele before setting up.
I'm with you on all of that except the part where the guy at spawn builds a dispenser there to bring with him. That's 11 seconds or more lost in getting to the front line. If you're able to do it all before the round starts, then it's probably fine, but anything that delays getting matériel to a live battlefield should be shunned. My biggest concern (assuming it's pre-round actions) is actually that he's running across the map to place a teleport when his current location is fine. Top right is usually lost before back left is, and the tele would be better placed there. If a teleport is destined to go up right, it may be wise to put your own up there where you can support it, and when he comes through, he can put his on the left where his other gear goes. This goes double if he's putting the dispenser somewhere other than directly at the exit of your teleport. The time lost moving slowly to carry something is immense, and that should be avoided during set-up time.

Why is it an issue? Isn't 11 seconds at the back the same as 11 seconds up front? Nope. If he builds the dispenser at spawn, teleports, and immediately places it, that's 11 seconds (plus teleport and placement) lost before he can begin a second project. If he merely teleports in, builds a dispenser, then immediately grabs the metal and builds something else, he'll have both objects underway before he otherwise would have had a single one previously. Also, because he grabbed the metal earlier, it will respawn sooner, and he can proceed with object 3 faster.

Here are some timelines for person number 2:
VIEW CONTENT:
In both cases, the clock starts the moment the first engy's teleport is upgraded to level 3. Conditions are assumed to be ideal - teleporting directly next to the 100 metal box on Badlands rock-side, so you can pick it up while wrenching. Less than ideal will increase advantage to the site-builder, because the pre-builder's movement while carrying a building is slower. Numbers in parentheses represent how much metal the engineer has left.

Pre-building:
0:00 Start Dispenser at spawn, and wrench it (100)
0:11 Dispenser complete, avoid getting the 25 from it
0:13 Resupply with metal from spawn and return (200)
0:14 Pick up Dispenser and take Teleport
0:15 Place Dispenser
0:16 Start SG and wrench it (70)
0:18 Dispenser complete. (95)
0:18 Pick up metal while wrenching(195)
0:21 SG complete


Building on site:
0:00 Teleport from spawn
0:01 Start Dispenser (100)
0:02 Pick up metal (200)
0:03 Start SG (70)
0:04 Begin wrenching dispenser
0:12 Metal respawns and is picked up while wrenching(170)
0:13 Dispenser complete (195)
0:13 SG complete

As you can see, the engineer building on site will have both a dispenser and SG complete and ready, with 195 metal on his person, by the time the prebuilder is ready to pick up his dispenser and take the teleport with 200 metal on his person. Additionally, the site-builder's next metal respawn will occur 6 seconds earlier than that of the prebuilder, and his dispenser is a full 5 second cycle ahead of the prebuilder (time taken while teleporting and re-building doesn't accrue metal) giving him more metal in less time than the person who used the spawn method.
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Re: About Prebuilding

Post by Fano » Wed May 23, 2012 6:25 pm

The top right area of badwater (from RED's perspective) is perhaps the most important area to hold, I would preferably place my teleporter somewhere near there, maybe underneath the stairs, so that teammates coming are already on the high ground. It's pretty difficult for BLU to take the first point without controlling that cliff, a sentry covering the health + ammo on the left is good too, but if you're the only engineer, the top right should take priority.

Only with 3+ engineers should you consider building anything in the cubby hole, and even then there are probably better places to put a gun still (far right of the tunnel on the bottom, forward sentry by spawn above the tunnel even works fairly often).
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Re: About Prebuilding

Post by YoullNeverWalkAlone » Wed May 23, 2012 6:48 pm

Fano wrote:The top right area of badwater (from RED's perspective) is perhaps the most important area to hold, I would preferably place my teleporter somewhere near there, maybe underneath the stairs, so that teammates coming are already on the high ground. It's pretty difficult for BLU to take the first point without controlling that cliff, a sentry covering the health + ammo on the left is good too, but if you're the only engineer, the top right should take priority.

Only with 3+ engineers should you consider building anything in the cubby hole, and even then there are probably better places to put a gun still (far right of the tunnel on the bottom, forward sentry by spawn above the tunnel even works fairly often).
The thing I do like about the cubby though is that is it a safe place to tele into. Your team is unlikely to be exposed to fire right our the exit, and can still go in a couple directions to support where the fighting is. I do agree that a gun there is not very helpful. You can't hit much, and you are very vulnerable to a lot of different types of attacks in a small confined space.

What is the build speed time difference for something that you are first building vs when you move it? I know that things reform quicker after you move them, and have used that to my advantage in places where I need a sg to come online quicker than if I am building it for the first time.

I think I may start an engi dustbowl thread just to ask some advice on building on that map, without cluttering up this one.
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Re: About Prebuilding

Post by THE Flying chihuahua » Wed May 23, 2012 6:55 pm

TheCarpe wrote: I will say this until I'm blue in the face: There is never a reason to prebuild. Ever. I would always prefer a level 1 actually defending something immediately than a level 3 that may not get there in time at all.
You stole that from me. How dare you.
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Re: About Prebuilding

Post by arfy4 » Wed May 23, 2012 8:39 pm

Yesterday while playing on Dustbowl someone was prebuilding and I kept trying to explain to him how much slower it is and that he had enough time to fully upgrade it at our first point during setup, and he just kept telling me how great of a strategy it is and wouldn't listen to any reason from me. So we proceeded to repeatedly lose our first point and have our second point soon to follow and no matter how much I told him that we could at least hold them off for a little longer if he built his sentry at our first point, he just said that it was because our team didn't have good enough defenses up front and we should hold them off for long enough for him to get his sentry out there. So he continued to prebuild and we continued to lose. This is why I hate so many people you meet on dustbowl...
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