The Demoknight: Sword-and-Board basics

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Zork Nemesis
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The Demoknight: Sword-and-Board basics

Post by Zork Nemesis » Tue Nov 29, 2011 4:21 pm

“If I were to pick up this cowering-plate, I would have to put down my second sword,” a Scotsman thinks. “And surely that is madness.”

I'm here to tell you it's NOT madness (and it's not Sparta either). Having wielded the Eyelander for 90% of the time since it's release, i'm now here to pass on my secrets to proper, effective usage of this sword and shield combo that the drunk Scottish explosives expert decided to bring to a fight filled with miniguns, automated sentry turrets, rockets, and "magical" healing devices instead of his remote detonation charges.

Demoknighting sure has changed. I practically have to rewrite everything. May as well.

Overview
A Demoknight is generally a Demoman who forgoes the Sticky Launchers and rather opts to carry one of the three (currently) avalible shields to battle. By doing so, the Demo loses the versetality and manuverbility gained by having stickybombs as part of his arsenal but instead gains a different degree of mobility and a huge boost to personal defenses and melee combat. There are several combinations of sword, shield, and primary that provide high flexibility with the setup, but it burns down to one thing: running at people and smashing them over the head with whatever's in your hands.

Initial Loadout Choices

Shield
*Essentials (Applies to all shields)
Simply equipping either shield gives you passive damage resistance to fire and explosives. To clarify, that damage resistance applies to these weapons:

Fire
Any Flamethrower
Any Flare Gun
Sharpened Volcano Fragment (afterburn, initial attack is Melee damage)
Burning Huntsman Arrows (afterburn, initial attack is Bullet damage)
Cow Mangler 5000 Charge Shot (afterburn, initial explosion is Explosive damage)
Hadouken (A demo must have 4+ heads and must be overhealed or under a defensive buff to survive anyway)
Armageddon (Rainblower Taunt, same deal as Hadouken, though if enough people are caught in the blast the damage will be reduced)
Huo-Long Heater (the blazing aura, the bullets are still Bullet damage)

Explosive
Any Rocket Launcher (Cow Mangler 5000 included, Rocket Jumper excluded)
Any Grenade Launcher
--I am not sure what the damage from the Loose Cannon is considered. I assume explosive, due to the gibbing effect.
Any Sticky Launcher (Sticky Jumper excluded)
Ullapool Caber (explosion; initial swing, and swings after explosion are Melee damage)
Level 3 Sentrygun Rockets
Kamikaze (Same deal with Hadouken)
--Self-inflicted blast damage is NOT reduced
--The Classic is still Bullet damage, despite the death animation being a gibbing.

In addition to the nice perk of damage resistance, both shields grant you the ability to charge forward at 2.5 base speed (750 hammer units/second) (for comparison, Scouts run at 1.3 base speed) for about a second, covering a lot of distance in the process. (the speed is reduced to 1.8? (638 hammer units/second) with the Scottsman Skullcutter. If the Claidheameh mor is equipped, the charge will last longer, increasing distance of charge by 25%). Unless you wear Ali Baba's Boots or the Bootlegger or are using the Tide Turner, it is very difficult to make turns while charging. If you are wearing either footwear, it's easier, but don't expect to turn on a dime. If you use the Tide Turner, you have full control of turns and can even spin in circles! While charging, swinging your melee weapon will end the charge and will deal additional damage based on how long you were charging. Your weapon will mini-crit (+35% damage) about halfway through, and close to the end, your weapon will critical (+300% damage). Firing a Grenade Launcher (if equipped) while charging will not end the charge, nor will the grenades gain crit bonuses. With the exception of a Pyro airblast, anything ending your charge, be it a solid object, a player, a melee swing, or an explosion, will drain the remainder of your charge meter (unless you score a kill using the Tide Turner, in which case your charge meter is instantly filled). Your charge meter refills in 10 seconds (less with the Splended Screen), upon respawn, or reaching a Resupply cabinet. If a Pyro airblasts you mid-charge, your charge meter will refill from the point at which you were airblasted.
--A bug that's been present since the Splendid Screen's release, if you run into a player at any distance as you perform your melee swing, you will be given a critical melee swing, even if you traveled no distance.

Finally, all shields now do bash damage at any distance should you impact with an enemy. The damage is relative to the amount you've covered so the further you go, the more damage you'll deal.

*Chargin' Targe
Image
+50% Fire Resistance
+30% Explosion Resistance

The original demoknight shield, and my personal favorite, having this shield dramatically improves your survival against Soldiers, Pyros, and other Demos who opted not to bring a sword/shield. Choosing this over the other shields will grant you higher survivability as opposed to increased damage dealt.
--When impacting a player at maximum charge distance (the distance required is when your window for critical hits is open), the shield bash will deal 50 damage and is considered a Bullet attack. If you are wielding an Eyelander, Headtaker, or Nine-Iron, the damage will be boosted by 10 for each head you have collected, up to five for a maximum damage of 100.
--The Targe is not recommended for Medieval mode due to the lack of fire and explosives available.

*Splendid Screen
Image
+20% Fire Resistance
+20% Explosion Resistance
+70% Bash damage
+50% Recharge rate

A more offensive shield, this one provided less than half of the resistance offered by the Targe. In exchange, your shield bashing is dramatically improved with a 70% charge impact bonus and a faster recharge time.
--Bashing with this shield at max distance causes 85 damage. If you are wielding an Eyelander, Headtaker, or Nine-Iron, your damage will be boosted by 17 per head collected, up to five for a maximum damage of 170.

*The Tide Turner
Image
+15% Fire Resistance
+15% Explosion Resistance
100% Turning Control while Charging
Melee kills restore 75% charge. (you do not have to be charging; shield bash kills count for this)

Taking damage while charging reduces remaining charge.
Only grants mini-crit boosts from long range charges

The shield with the least amount of resistances, this shield isn't a good option for survival, however the other effects of this shield make it stand out though. Full turning control means you can run circles without having to worry about abusing exploits to do so. The big deal is the kill recharge aspect though. When you kill someone with a melee attack while charging you instantly refill almost all of your charge meter and can dash again. This allows for chain-killing as well as hit-and-run tactics to be employed with little difficulty though you might have to take multiple swings at someone. Recent updates have made it that if you take damage while charging you will have your remaining charge reduced. This means that if you get shot while charging at someone, you may not reach them. As such, use the Tide Turner against unaware enemies so you don't run the risk of being stopped in your tracks.
--Shield bash damage with the Tide Turner is the same as the Chargin' Targe.


Primary Weapons
There are a few to pick from.

*Grenade Launcher/Reskins
Image
The most basic demo ranged weapon and probably the easiest to use. This allows you to lay down a barrage of grenades over medium distances between charges and gives you a very powerful, if somewhat inaccuracte, weapon to use when you need. A somewhat slow loader, try and keep it loaded as often as possible and ready whenever you need it, as without your stickybombs, this is your primary source of explosive damage. 3 well-aimed shots from this will usually take down a level-3 sentry if the Engineer is not guarding it (and if he is, he'll likely be caught in the slash damage)

*Loch-n-Load
Image
+20% Damage to buildings
+25% Projectile Speed

-25% Magazine Size
-25% Explosion Radius
Bombs shatter on surfaces

The Loch-n-Load isn't quite as strong as it used to be. It's still a formidable launcher but many of the perks of the weapon have been removed or reduced. The Loch still fires grenades at a higher velocity which means you can still make longer shots but it no longer has a damage bonus. Conversely it also no longer has the self-damage penalty it initially came with (but you can still 2-hit kill yourself if you use the Eyelander) and it now has a third shot for some reason. It's role has been relegated to long-distance building destruction which is still very useful for Demoknighting. The damage of the launcher is the same as the stock and the high speed shots are still rewarding if you can lead your targets but it's no longer the force of destruction it used to be.
--Now that there's three shots, you can win a fight with a Heavy at full health with no overheal if you can land all three shots (barring criticals).

*Ali Baba's Wee Booties/Bootlegger
ImageImage
+25 Max Health
+200% Turning Speed
+10% Movement Speed
Melee kills refill 25% of your charge meter. (you do not have to be charging; shield bash kills count for this)

No ranged attack capability
For those who want to go pure melee, these are for you. equipping either footwear removes your Grenade Launcher, forcing you to rely on your charging and melee attacks. The plus here is that the boots increase your max health by 25, negating the penalties of the Eyelander, or boosting your health to 200. On top of that wearing either boot grants improved turn control, allowing you to make much tighter turns, often surprising your enemies and allowing for better evasion. If your charge is down don't be afraid to run away as many will simply backpedal away from you and shoot. Without a ranged attack you'll end up getting killed if you pursue one person too long or too far.
--If you use the Tide Turner, note that the turning control boost is redundant, as the Tide Turner has no turning hindrance whatsoever. You will still recover charge on a melee kill which in tandem with the Tide Turner will grant full charge refills on each kill.

*Loose Cannon
Image
Cannonballs have a 1 second fuse that can be primed by holding down Primary Fire
--Holding primary fire too long causes a misfire (similar to the Beggar's Bazooka) that does close to 90 damage to yourself and decent damage to any enemy directly next to you.
Cannonballs knock back players
+20% Projectile Speed

No explosions on direct hits
Added with the 2012 Winter update, this grenade launcher provides a very interesting alternative to the stock launcher that seems to require a fair degree of skill beyond spamming around corners. While that tactic is still possible, it's less effective due to the damage penalties for missing. This weapon has some clear disadvantages for Demoknighting, mainly pushing enemies out of your way on direct hits, though with proper timing and priming, you can potentially hit enemies twice in one shot doing a lot of damage. The bombs also keep going when they hit people, allowing you to literally bowl over large groups traveling in straight lines or tight passages. Another useful note of this launcher is that knockback on direct hits will push Ubercharged enemies so you can use this launcher to hold back Ubers, similar to a Pyro.
--An added perk of this grenade launcher, should you be willing to take a strong hit: you can perform a very powerful grenade jump by misfiring your grenade and aiming down and to the right at an angle behind you (something like a 4 or 5 o'clock position from facing front). If you are willing to tough out the brunt of the self-inflicted damage, this launcher can add a lot of mobility for going airborne and when charges are down. If you intend to do this, I recommend not using the Eyelander to keep as much health as possible, or wait until you've collected enough heads to soak up some of the damage.
--Added with the July 18th patch, if you can successfully hit someone with both the bomb itself and the explosion, the explosion will perform a special sound effect and deal mini-crit damage in addition to the impact damage. Without damage spread or resistances this equates to 131 damage on a double-hit.

*The B.A.S.E. Jumper
Image
Parachute enables slow fall
No ranged attack capability
Introduced in the Love & War Update, this parachute is neat....but I would advise against it for Demoknighting. Without Stickybombs it's difficult to get any air (you'd have to ramp jump to take full advantage of it). The parachute also leaves you defenseless against ranged threats without boosting your health like the shoes do. The only real advantage you can get out of equipping this is a way to avoid fall damage. If you're crazy enough to leave your shield behind, using the Sticky Jumper can make you an aerial melee threat. Your speed is capped while descending though (slower than two stickies can send you) and this combo leaves you with no ranged ability and no damage resistance. With the proper weapons though (Skullcutter, Pain Train) it can be an interestingly difficult experience.

*The Iron Bomber
Image
Grenades have little bounce and roll.
-15% Explosion Radius
A new launcher added for Smissmas 2014, the grenades fired from this one don't bounce or roll a whole lot (despite being perfectly spherical) at the cost of a slightly smaller blast. It has the same damage as the stock launcher and the same airborne physics so you can use it in a similar manner. What I think this launcher is good for is cutting off escapes; in essence you're firing what amount to timed mines since the balls don't roll very far when they hit the ground. If you can't get a hit on the person you're aiming for, you'll probably leave a few explosives behind them which will still hurt a lot should they try to run. You can also fire them into windows and at ceilings behind cover to pressure enemies in hiding with more reliability than the stock launcher.
--The lack of bounce and roll allows you to easily use this launcher as a means to grenade jump as the bombs don't roll away unpredictably. This launcher can add much needed vertical movement options to a demoknight but remember the bombs are still on a 2.3 second fuse.
Last edited by Zork Nemesis on Sat Jan 16, 2016 6:44 am, edited 21 times in total.
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Re: The Demoknight: Sword-and-Board basics

Post by Zork Nemesis » Tue Nov 29, 2011 4:22 pm

Now then, before I go over the Melee choices, a few things to remember

The Golden Rule of TF2 Melee Combat
If you pull a melee weapon, your adversary WILL pull a gun and back away
Nine times out of ten, if you approach anyone with your melee weapon out, they will run away shooting at you. Your charge allows you to get them anyway, but if your charge is down, chasing people with your sword will not work. Play smart and know when to go and when to hold.

Charges are predictable
A charging demo can pretty much only run in a straight line (or a narrow arc with the boots on), if you run right at someone's face, all they have to do is sidestep a few feet and they're out of harms way. Try to charge at people who are not aware of your location and don't hesitate once you start running; your battle scream is pretty loud and annoucing.

Combine your Bashes and Criticals
If you can manage the timing, it's possible to perform both the shield bash and the critical swing at once, allowing for increased damage. Use this to dispatch tougher foes or foes who are overhealed.

Avoid Heavies unless you know you'll win
Heavies are a big threat to demoknights. Their miniguns will kill you before you reach them if you charge them head on and if the Heavy is packing Natascha, the bullets will stop you as if you ran into a wall, draining your charge meter. Since most have medics at their beck and call, many will easily be able to withstand your assault, and even without a medic, they will survive a bash/critical most of the time. It's best to avoid them unless you know you have the upper hand.
--Softening up heavies prior to charging with your grenade launcher is a good way to weaken them, but be aware it will give away your position, so catch the heavy this way when he's distracted or not ready to spin up.

Be wary of sentries
If you don't pack your grenade launcher, it's almost impossible to get in range of a sentry and survive if you intend to attack it. Without your sticky launcher, sentries are a much greater threat than ever and require practice to take down with just grenades. A common tactic is to perform artillery strikes by standing back a significant distance and firing your grenade launcher at the sentry. If your aim is good this should handle it provided the engineer isn't there to support it. With the boots, avoid sentries at all costs, as you will most surely die by getting in range of one.
--The Loch-n-Load is highly effective at knocking out sentry nests. Two hits will bring down any building and the increased shot speed means you can shoot from further away reducing risk of personal injury. The splash damage may also harm or kill the engineer guarding the nest and possibly any other players who might be in the area resupplying at the dispenser. If you have to fight it in firing range, you can usually trade the kill with it but if the engineer is alive he'll probably just rebuild it afterwards.

You are tough, but you are not invincible
The defense bonuses provided by the targe may make you think Soldiers, Pyros, and Demos are no longer a threat. Don't be fooled as enough firepower from anyone will kill you, and criticals are just as deadly as they always were (though they may not be guarenteed kills, they'll still leave a mark). Other classes are just as threatening as before, and may take advantage of the fact that you're not using your sticky launcher.

Try not to be Ubercharged
Sad to say a Demoknight, while fun to uber, makes for a relativly bad uber. Without your sticky bombs it's a lot harder to clear out engineer nests on your own. Instead, work to assist uber pushes, or if ubers aren't avalible, try to lay down artillery support from a distance.

Don't get discouraged
As far as I can tell, the general concensious is that Demoknights are still unpopular and weak. Don't let that put you off, it hasn't put me off and my best lives are playing demoknight. As of 7/31/14, my best life as a Demoknight was a massive 61 points, with 42 kills. My Killstreak weapons registered 50 total kills that life; 8 were Dead Ringer spies.
I've also reached Hale's Own rank on my first Strange Eyelander (achieved 12/21/13). Currently I'm working on a Strange Festive Eyelander and I also have a Strange Chargin' Targe sitting at 146 kills as of 7/31/14.

So then, on to Melee selection, and often it's the melee weapon that determines your game.

*Bottle/Reskins
Image
The default melee weapon for a demo, even with a shield it can be a menacing weapon. Providing no real strengths or weaknesses, you keep your health and critical hits, but trade off the extended melee range and the ability to collect heads. It does however not have the draw and holster penalties that all of the Demo's bladed weapons have so if you want a faster swapping weapon this is the best option.
--Using the Frying Pan may be a less than effective choice. While anyone will notice a melee attack, the Frying Pan has a very loud, distinct noise that is much easier to pick up on and can easily be heard by your victim's nearby teamates.
--If you somehow have one, using a Saxxy is also easy to detect as you're likely the only person on the server leaving behind gold statues for corpses.
--If you somehow have one, a Golden Frying Pan combines both potential drawbacks of the Frying Pan and the Saxxy.
--Taunting with most of these weapons will produce a funny "drunken gibberish" line after the fact when you perform a melee swing

*Pain Train
Image
+1 Capture Rate
+10% Bullet Vunerabillity
Providing no damage differences than the bottle, the Pain Train gives you some extra capture power. Combined with the shield's charge, it can be easy to sometimes run past the enemy and straight onto a control point with an x2 capture rate. This can easily win the final cap on most 5-CP maps. Keep in mind, equipping the Pain Train increases the damage you take from bullet weapons, making those classes that don't have fire or explosives a much bigger threat.
--The Pain Train has no advantages in Capture the Flag, Special Delivery, Arena, or Robot/Player Destruction or any other mode (official or otherwise) that doesn't involve capturing objectives. Furthermore on Payload or Attack/Defense the weapon has no benefit while playing on Defense. In these situations I highly suggest using something else as you will simply make it easier to get shot without any benefits.

*Ullapool Caber
Image
No random criticals
-100% switch-to time
-20% swing speed

The Derp Demo's tool, the Ullapool Caber packs a mighty punch in which when the explosive makes contact with a player or solid surface for the first time, it will explode violently, causing 55 damage from the swing, and an additional 75 damage to whoever you hit (and anyone around the victim, provided the hit registers properly) and 100 damage to you, as well as vaulting you high up in the air for another 20-something fall damage. When used with the charge to gain criticals, the explosion is capable of 225 damage, and the swing does roughly 165 on a critical, allowing for easy dispatch of heavies or tightly packed groups of enemies. Be warned, the explosion only happens once. Once you blow up, you have to either die or hit a resupply to explode again. Without the explosion, the weapon is a slower version of the Scout's bat with no random criticals. Do not fear death should you carry this; the explosion will likely kill you anyway. Be sure to have it ready when you charge as the weapon requires a lot of time to prepare if you're switching from a launcher as it requires twice as long to draw as a non-bladed weapon.
--A good idea is to aim for medics, medics will often have people defending them close by, allowing you to often score more than one kill per explosion. Control points and Bomb carts are also good targets, but don't let them see you coming.
--The taunt is NOT a taunt attack, though it is based off a taunt that was going to be an attack for the bottle back during the War update.

Before I continue, Tough Break added a drawback to any "bladed" weapon that increases the time it takes to switch to and from it. I don't know the exact number, but it's probably somewhere in the neighborhood of one second to draw/holster. For comparison, the bottle and Pain Train only require 0.5 seconds to draw/holster. As a result, it's actually rather inconvienent to swap from the launcher to the sword/axe and it's pretty much impossible to change and swing mid-charge. Have your weapon ready beforehand or bring the boots.

*Eyelander/Reskins
Image
-25 Max Health
No random criticals

For every kill, your speed and max health are increased
Increased Melee Range

The bread-and-butter of the demo swords I like to think, the Eyelander is the original demo sword. With it equipped, you take a penalty of 25 to your max health, and you cannot perform random criticals with it. However, it has extended melee range and for each kill you perform with it, your speed and max health is increased (up to a maximum of four kills worth). Each kill adds 15 to your health for a max of 210 (235 with boots, additional kills after 4 give you 15 overhealing) and about 7% more speed for a max speed of 1.23 (again, Scouts are 1.3). Each kill also augments your shield bash damage, providing an extra 10/17 per kill, up to a max of five for +50/+85 bash damage. Once you get started with this, you are extremely hard to stop as 210/235 health along with the increased damage resistances provided by your shield make you very hard to kill. Don't get greedy though, it's easy to be overwhelmed.
--Performing a taunt with one of these weapons will perform the Decapitation taunt kill. A successful kill from this attack will add a head to your counter
--Killing another Eyelander demo with your own sword will allow you to absorb every head he's collected so far, as well as taking his own head as a bonus. This works both ways however, and he will receive all you have collected if he gets you first
--A Dead Ringer Spy who fakes his death on your Eyelander will award you with a head, even though the Spy is not actually dead
--Due to a bug, killing a Bazaar Bargain sniper with the sword will also absorb the heads in the Sniper's counter. This may also apply to Soldiers wielding the Air Strike, however I need to confirm that one.

*Claidheameh Mor
Image

No random criticals
+15% damage taken while active

Melee kills restore 25% of your charge meter
+25 health gained on kill
Increased Melee Range

Tough Break really changed this one. The weapon no longer grants a longer charging distance but now gives you a Powerjack-esque reward for kills. A successful kill restores health and charge but having it out makes you more vulnerable to all types of damage. The weapon synergizes well with the Tide Turner as it lets you equip a launcher and still maintain a 100% charge recovery on a kill and the health restoration makes chain kills a bit safer.
--You can perform the taunt kill with this sword, but there are no benefits other than being able to point and laugh for doing so.

*Scottsman Skullcutter
Image
+20% damage
Increased Melee Range

-15% reduced movement speed
A higher damaging weapon than the rest, the skullcutter has an inherent damage bonus of 20%, giving you ferocious attack power when you catch people in close range. You also have the advantage of random criticals, which deal a whopping 234 damage. The downside is that carrying the skullcutter makes you slower than a soldier (0.79, Soldiers move at 0.8) and this speed reduction crosses over to your shield charges, giving you slower charges with less distance. Skullcutters are a good choice in more defensive situations when you have less distance to cover and work very well as an ambush weapon when opponents don't get a chance to escape.

*Half Zatoichi
Image
+50% health restored on kill (can overheal)
Increased melee range

No random criticals
If holstered without a kill, you take 50 damage
Cannot be holstered if health is below 50 if no kill has been made

This neat little sword has some cool sound effects. Aside that, it's perk is that killing someone with it restores a lot of health on the spot, which can be a lifesaver and can be a real boon for sword massacres. The downside is that once drawn putting it away without a kill really hurts. You can negate this penalty by using the boots, but if you bring a grenade launcher, pull your sword ONLY when you know you can make the kill. If you don't get the kill, you're stuck.
--Not specific to Demoknighting, but Soldiers also have to deal with the weapon swap penalties associated with bladed weapons with the Half-Zatoichi.
--As an important note, if you have the "Remember weapon on death" option under Advanced Options set, you may respawn stuck on the Zatoichi unable to sheathe it. I recommend disabling this option if you intend to use this weapon.
--If you have other weapons and switch, you can switch off of the weapon without getting a kill or dying without penalty by visiting a resupply locker.
--Attacking a Soldier or Demo who also has a Half Zatoichi drawn will result in a one-hit kill (525 damage is dealt I believe). This works both ways.
--Performing a taunt kill with this weapon will allow you to put your sword away once the animation is finished.

*Persian Persuader
Image
No random criticals
-80% max Primary and Secondary ammo

Ammo pickups restore charge (same as Spy picking up ammo for Cloak I believe)
Melee hits restore 20% charge
Increased Melee Range

Tough Break hit this sword hard to the point where it's actually a completely different weapon than when it was released. The only thing still constant is the lack of criticals. The sword still maintains being able to charge often but ammo no longer provides health benefits. Now it refills your charge meter allowing you to charge more often, possibly more than before if you collect ammo from victims. Hits also refill your charge giving you the ability to chain kill with any shield or give you a quick escape option if you need to get out of dodge. The ammo penalty affects your reserve ammo, giving you very little to work with if you opt to carry a launcher. Use those few shots wisely but at least now you can replenish them without visiting a cabinet.
--You can also taunt kill, but again, no benefits for doing so.

A few more things to consider

Boots or No Boots?
The boots are the final transition to a pure melee class, but taking them gives you no means of dealing with anything at range. Consider your enemies and your role before making the final call. Going up against a sentry with nothing more than an axe will not do.

Shield?
Defense vs Offense vs Mobility, as stated above, the Targe provides much better defensives, while the Screen further augments your damage by increasing bash damage and opportunity and the Turner improves your mobility. When faced with fewer explosive users, the Screen might be a more practical choice, but if you're staring down Soldiers and Pyros for a living, take the Targe. If enemies tend to cluster or the map has plenty of hiding spots, consider the Turner for chain kills or ambushes.
--On Degroot Keep or any server/map with Medieval active, the Targe is not recommended as there are far fewer sources of fire and explosives to worry about.

Attacking or Defending
Unrelated to the shield choice, this involves your role in what you're doing. Generally, Demoknights do better when playing defense, as there are far more opportunities to pick off stragglers from the group. Your opponents often won't cluster or stay close while you're defending, allowing you some more breathing room for escapes after you make your kill or things get dicey. On offense, it's harder, as your escapes will be a little tougher, and your charges will often drive you into the hornet's nest. Keep in mind your surroundings and where you and your enemy are going before charging, lest you end up in hot water with no way out.


Final Thoughts
The Demoknight is a well-rounded class, trading the superior firepower of the sticky launcher for defenses and melee tactics. A surprise for most who get cut down by a sword-wielding demo, and a somewhat-powerful tanking aspect for defending territory, even if they are unpopular within the masses. One thing's for certain, this demoknight has more heads to collect, and is eager to see any of you on the battlefield, sword/caber/bottle in hand.
Last edited by Zork Nemesis on Sat Jan 16, 2016 6:42 am, edited 11 times in total.
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Re: The Demoknight: Sword-and-Board basics

Post by Gizanked » Tue Nov 29, 2011 4:47 pm

tl;dr
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Re: The Demoknight: Sword-and-Board basics

Post by Zork Nemesis » Tue Nov 29, 2011 4:50 pm

Gizanked wrote:tl;dr
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Seriously though, constructive criticism would be appreciated.
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Re: The Demoknight: Sword-and-Board basics

Post by Gizanked » Tue Nov 29, 2011 4:53 pm

i'm sorry. i'm at work and bored... perhaps the perfect time to actually read through everything.
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Re: The Demoknight: Sword-and-Board basics

Post by Peahats » Tue Nov 29, 2011 4:54 pm

Gizanked wrote:tl;dr
No! I thought all the evil of SPUF went back to its hellish depths when it came back online! Now it's spreading here!

I read it and I liked how you pointed out that one of the Demoknights main jobs is still taking out sentries. Although I would say that the booties really should only get used in medieval mode.

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Re: The Demoknight: Sword-and-Board basics

Post by Zork Nemesis » Tue Nov 29, 2011 4:56 pm

Peahats wrote: I read it and I liked how you pointed out that one of the Demoknights main jobs is still taking out sentries. Although I would say that the booties really should only get used in medieval mode.
Play a few rounds with me on TV3, I often do boots/targe/eyelander. While I know the 3 people are generally underskilled, I have gone 44-1 in a full round of Harvest with that loadout before.
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Re: The Demoknight: Sword-and-Board basics

Post by Zork Nemesis » Tue Nov 29, 2011 4:58 pm

Gizanked wrote:i'm sorry. i'm at work and bored... perhaps the perfect time to actually read through everything.
Don't worry about it, it might acctually be a bit excessive, since it took me two and a half hours to write up
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Re: The Demoknight: Sword-and-Board basics

Post by Gizanked » Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:52 pm

you know i still love you. also, i still refuse to play demoknight.
http://www.tf2items.com/id/evagizanked
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Re: The Demoknight: Sword-and-Board basics

Post by TheCarpe » Tue Nov 29, 2011 6:06 pm

Stickies are boring. Real Demo's use Pipes.
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Re: The Demoknight: Sword-and-Board basics

Post by Cpt._Keyes » Tue Nov 29, 2011 8:16 pm

real demo's derp
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Re: The Demoknight: Sword-and-Board basics

Post by l3eeron » Tue Nov 29, 2011 10:16 pm

I've played a lot of demo knight, I would have to agree with everything said. I usually run the screen/eyelander/nade launcher. I like trying to use my nades to "corral" people and then charge at them. Nothing is better than being a demoknight with 5 or more heads, over healed. Basically fast as a scout, tough as a heavy. Don't quote me on that, I don't know the specific numbers. :)

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Re: The Demoknight: Sword-and-Board basics

Post by Cpt._Keyes » Wed Nov 30, 2011 1:21 am

l3eeron wrote:I've played a lot of demo knight, I would have to agree with everything said. I usually run the screen/eyelander/nade launcher. I like trying to use my nades to "corral" people and then charge at them. Nothing is better than being a demoknight with 5 or more heads, over healed. Basically fast as a scout, tough as a heavy. Don't quote me on that, I don't know the specific numbers. :)

quoted
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Re: The Demoknight: Sword-and-Board basics

Post by Zork Nemesis » Wed Nov 30, 2011 2:56 pm

Should've added this yesterday, completely forgot.

Addenum: Class Matchups
Things to consider when attacking your targets.

*Vs Scout
Scouts are fast and mobile, they are generally not the preferred victim as they can easily dodge your grenades and get out of range of your melee weapons, while whittling away at you with their shotgun or pistol. While you can charge faster than they can move, they can still retreat very quickly and keep out of your reach. Avoid them as much as you can and try not to pursue them without your grenade launcher. Don't ignore them completly however, as the shotguns they have hurt quite a bit.

*Vs Soldier
Soldiers are likely your best target. At full health, they can just barely survive a critical, but if things go well, they will likely hurt themself responding to you before they realize what has or is about to happen. Your shield will absorb the brunt of explosive attacks, so don't be afraid to get close to them. When you're in melee range, if they're still using rockets, they risk harming themself, while the shotgun is tricky to aim at point-blank. Be cautious of Equalizer-wielding soldiers, as when you beat up on them, they become stronger and gain the ability to retaliate with intense power or flee to a safe distance.
--If you use the Half-Zatoichi, also be aware of other soldiers using it, as the weapons produce a 1-hit kill if the person struck with it is also wielding it.

*Vs Pyro
Try not to charge them when they are aware of you. While an airblast will stop your charge, it won't deplete the charge meter, but the airblast will often catch you off guard and give the pyro a chance to retaliate. Be extremely careful of pyros with the Axtinguisher (95% of Degreaser-wielding Pyros will have it and/or the Reserve Shooter on), as the Axtinguisher crits will nullify your fire resistances. Reserve Shooters and Shotguns also pose a threat, but a slight bit less as shotguns are still tough to aim at close range. Airblasting removes your ability to evade so brace yourself when you get puff'd.
--With the July 18, 2013 update, equipping the Chargin' Targe grants afterburn immunity, greatly diminishing the threat presented by Pyros wielding Axetinguishers or Flare Guns. Many Pyros haven't gotten used to this fact yet and still attempt to puff/sting you anyway so use this to your advantage. Be warned that you still take the same damage from direct fire, so it's still not advised to just run straight at a Pyro, and the Reserve Shooter's mini-crit combo is unaffected by the afterburn immunity.

*Vs Stickybomb Demoman
Stickies still hurt quite a bit, especially critical stickies. Do whatever you can to not chase sticky wielding demos as they will likely leave a minefield in your wake as they retreat. With the Eyelander and Targe, it still takes two stickies to kill you at their maximum damage.

*Vs Demoknight
This boils down to a matter of who sees who first, who charges who first, and what the adversairy is carrying. Pay attention to your enemy before you strike and be wary of random criticals if you're carrying a weapon that doesn't if he is. From expereience, in Demoknight vs Demoknight battles, the Demo carrying the Splendid Screen will often have the advantage.
--Killing another demo who has a head-counter sword will add all of the heads he's collected to your own counter if you are wielding one, in addition to the demo's own head.
--Demoknights wielding the Half-Zatoichi should be aware of each other for potential 1-hit kills against other Half-Zatoichi demos.

*Vs Heavy
As mentioned above, Heavies are probably your worst target, worse than Scouts. While Heavies aren't hard to keep up with, they are however extremely powerful. Charging a revved-up Heavy head-on, you will die from the minigun before you get in melee range, no matter what minigun the Heavy is using. Heavies also have very high health, meaning one charge bash/critical is usually not enough to kill, and the addition of a medic at the heavy's beck-and-call often means your damage will just serve to build the medic's charge. If you have to engage a heavy in melee, circle-strafe around him as much as you can; most heavies don't think enough to pull melee on you, and many carry GRUs making melee combat a bad idea. If you can outmanuver the minigun, you have a chance.
--Heavies wielding Natascha will stop your charges if they shoot you, Natascha bullets seem to register as a solid wall when you charge into them.
--Charging with the Ullapool Caber, performing a shield bash and a critical swing all at once will produce a three-fold attack, dealing 415 damage (with the Screen) to the victim. Survivable with overheal but not by much.

*Vs Engineer
Engineer battles are dependent on where the Engineer is in relation to his sentry. He is a very easy mark if he's not with it (though don't underestimate shotgun DPS). If he is with the sentry, it's advised not to just run in there. Attempt to destroy the sentry with your grenade launcher first. If the Engineer is tanking his gun, he will likely be caught and killed in the grenade's splashes. If the Engineer decides to respond with the Wrangler, it may be a better idea to charge at the Engineer then, as human reflexes often cannot match the speed of the charge if you're coming from a good angle. Be sure that if you do this and kill the Engineer, retreat to safety before the gun reactivates as there's no way you'll knock it down while it's shielded.
--Mini-sentries also pose a threat, but not nearly as much. It's advised that you attack the Engineer first, but don't waste time doing so as mini-sentry DPS builds quickly. If this is not possible, one direct hit from the grenade launchers (maybe two for the Loose Cannon) will knock the mini-sentry down.
--If you charge an Engy with the Wrangler and kill him; you have one second to get to cover before the sentry reactivates, as opposed to three seconds if the Engy remains alive and switches weapons.

*Vs Medic
In almost every situation, you'll want to single out the medic, as the medic is the lifeblood of his team. The Shield gives you the ability to often charge past his teammates and defenders and cut him down before he or his team gets a chance to react. If the medic is aware of you or own his own, be careful of his weapons. Medics possess high speed and can easily outrun you, Overdose medics being faster than others. Chasing down a medic who is retreating with a Blutsauger is an exercise in futility, as if you're too close the Blutsauger will heal all the damage you probably did while leaving a painful mark if you survive. Melee combat against Ubersaw medics is a risky venture, as if you do not win the enemy medic is closer to having a full charge, if not already charged.

*Vs Sniper
Never charge a scoped-in Sniper head-on, you will not be able to avoid the headshot if you do. Snipers are often distracted with a reduced field-of-vision and slowed down movement, so catch them from the sides. Huntsman snipers are tougher to charge at, as they can move faster, see more, and react faster. Be careful of Jarate/Bushwhacka Snipers, as criticals hurt. Shahanshah Snipers get stronger as you beat them up, though not to the scale that Soldiers get (a Shahanshah sniper with less than 50% health is like taking on a Pyro with a Backscratcher).
--Due to a bug, killing a Bazaar Bargain sniper who has headshots on his counter with a head-counter sword will award you with all the headshots he's made as heads, similar to decapitating another head-counter Demoknight.

*Vs Spy
Don't charge at cloaked spies, you will likely miss. Be careful of intercepting cloaked spies as you charge at someone else, many times they will come between you and your victim (often by accident) and catch you off guard. If this happens, retreat to safety and work on rooting the spy out instead. Engaging in melee with a spy can be tricky, don't let him get behind you (though wonky backstab mechanics make this tougher than it looks, especially if one of you is lagging). Keep your distance from Enforcer spies if they are aware, the Enforcer packs a bit of a punch. Skilled Ambassador spies can also proove to be a threat, but they are few and far between.
--A Spy who fakes his death with the Dead Ringer on your head-counter sword will award you a head. Don't forget to call him out to the rest of your team when this happens.
Last edited by Zork Nemesis on Fri Oct 16, 2015 1:08 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: The Demoknight: Sword-and-Board basics

Post by Devastator » Sun Jan 08, 2012 10:05 am

One thing you probably forgot to include in ur guide ... avoid Happy :) no matter what ... happy likes to pwn demonights :D
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