A paranoid person's guide to playing Engineer

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A paranoid person's guide to playing Engineer

Post by One_Medic_Army » Thu Jul 28, 2011 4:59 pm

Let me be the first to say, I am not anywhere near the best engineer, not on these servers or anywhere else.
I do have quite a bit of playtime, however, and have a few tips I'd like to share with anyone interested.

First off a couple divisions which I find affect play style greatly:
Nesting/tanking engineer versus free ranging engineer (do you sit with your sentry and gear, or do you let it do it's thing and go shoot people?)
Mini sentries versus full blown sentries (these are not used in the same way, and effective use is much different)
Wrangler versus no wrangler (I personally hardly ever use one, for reasons I will go into more below)

Now let's get to it.
First off, depending on the map, which of your buildings is most important will change.
On a map with fewer health/ammo pickups the dispenser is the king, and should be your first priority to upgrade and save.
On a map with long distances involved, particularly with large teams and/or faster respawn times (like you will find on TV 1, 2, 6, 7, 8) your teleporter is important.
Finally when you're having issues being flanked, or need to deny an area or approach to an enemy team that's where the sentry gun shines.

Building placement is another matter, do you want to keep the building safe, or do you want to go for big reward big risk?
Generally speaking, the more important a building is in the current situation, the less you should risk it by putting it somewhere dangerous.
However Teleporters should still be sending people someplace useful and Dispensers should still be somewhere your teammates can access them without spending too much time not shooting the other team.
Dispensers tend to work well in corners or behind cover nearer to the "front" or where the majority of the action is taking place. Teleporters should be well enough back that they're not in line of sight to enemies at the "front", again use cover to hide/protect them.

Sentry placement falls into three categories (in my mind): ambush, defensive, and offensive.

Defensive sentries are placed to take advantage of map cover, limited enemy sight lines, and good field of fire. Typically they are placed at corners or behind low cover where they are protected from some incoming fire, but still have good visibility on enemies. Unless you plan to be wrangling all the time it's important to pay attention to the firing range of the sentry. Make sure that there are as few areas as possible outside it's range and within line of sight. Conversely you want to keep any major approaches right at the edge of line of sight, as sentries don't suffer damage falloff and exert a good amount of "push" on anyone attempting to close with them. The further your sentry is from enemies, the harder it is for them to hurt -with the exception of snipers-.

Offensive sentries are ones dropped into an area of fighting to provide support. A sentry set up to cover a control point that the other team owns would fall under this category. Expect your sentry to die, frequently, if you do this. However having a gun adding firepower to your team can make a huge difference. Here is actually a situation where having a wrangler can help, since you can expect your sentry to take a lot of fire. Be careful though, if you wrangle you become the main target for the enemy team, and if you die your sentry is as good as destroyed with the 3second downtime. You will also not be able to shoot at enemies yourself, and the sentry will not be able to use it's auto-targeting capacity on highly mobile opponents (scouts, pyros, jumpers, random spies).

Ambush sentries are sentries placed so that an enemy does not see them before getting shot. Typical placements are in corners, or behind walls with a field of fire towards your team's territory. Here the main idea is that the sentry will kill or severely injure an enemy before they even know it's there. As such your sentry should be positioned to fire on an enemy from behind or the side if possible, and have cover concealing it from any enemy that it can't shoot. A trick I've found for this type of sentry is to angle the front of the gun away from where you expect enemies to come, so that it will take extra time to lock onto them. This can cause the enemy to be further from cover when the sentry begins firing on them, and thus make kills more likely. It's best to not rebuild a destroyed ambush sentry in the same spot, as the strength of this type of placement is in the surprise.

Mini-sentries excel in the ambush and offensive roles with their smaller size and quicker setup time. Defensive mini sentries can also be used to prevent scouts from having free access to an area, though don't expect them to do much to any heavier class, or even stop a scout necessarily. Ambush/defensively placed mini sentries can also be used as a sort of tripwire to alert you that someone is attempting to enter an area.
Full sentries can be used in any of these roles, though ambush is slightly harder as they take longer to build and upgrade. If placing a full sentry in an ambush position be ready to move it after a few kills to prevent it being destroyed once the other team wises up to it's position.

General sentry positioning tips: walls behind a sentry make it easier to hit with rolling pills, stickybombs, and rockets. If possible have a flat area behind the sentry. Having your sentry next to an external corner (ie at the outside corner of a building) works well to protect it from the side wile giving it a good field of fire and allowing misses to pass by without dealing blast damage.
If you plan to sit on/near your sentry then make sure there's a safe area nearby with good cover, especially be on the lookout for any corner you can stand in to keep spies from coming up behind you. Warning: spies can stand on top of your head and drop down behind you for a backstab when you move, check on top of your head occasionally.

Dispensers can be the lifeline of your team on certain maps, they are also your lifeline for a steady supply of metal to upgrade/rebuild your other buildings. As such there are two main ways they are positioned: team support and personal support.
Team support dispensers are placed so that your teammates can access them easily, preferably while still firing at the enemy. Good places here are immediately around corners that your team is holding at or assaulting from. They can also be placed behind cover in contested areas to provide the same effect if actual walls aren't available. Having a dispenser like this up also encourages your team-mates to cluster around it, providing a strong-point, or focus of attention for your team.
Personal support dispensers are generally used by engineers who are "turtling" and are placed very close to the sentry so that the engineer can be healed and have his metal refilled while at the same time repairing/wrangling/de-sapping his sentry. This typically leads to hard to kill sentries, that when killed also take the engineer, dispenser, and sometimes teleporter with them. They make very tempting spy and uber targets, as well as tempting targets for soldiers and demos.

Teleporters do more than just get your team-mates to the front faster. They guide your team-mates to a location of your choosing. They allow you, the engineer, to cause a constant stream of team-mates to appear in a location chosen by you. I cannot stress enough how powerful an ability this is, especially in servers with low amounts of team-work. If you want your team to use a side-path instead of a main path, just set up a porter there. Conversely never set up a teleporter you don't want your team going through, especially if the entrance is by your spawn. I have seen entire defenses wrecked because the engineer put up a teleporter behind the enemy lines for spies to use, and then was left without any team-mates to defend the objective. Never count on anyone listening to you when you say "don't use the porter".
Last edited by One_Medic_Army on Thu Jul 28, 2011 6:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A paranoid person's guide to playing Engineer

Post by One_Medic_Army » Thu Jul 28, 2011 4:59 pm

General playstyles:
Mini-sentry combat engineer:
Loadout: Shotgun/Frontier Justice, Pistol (wrangler use not recommended), gunslinger.
Zork Nemesis has written a good guide on how to play this specific sub-build
I'll add in that if you prefer to fight from medium ranges, and set mini-sentry traps in ambush locations, then using a pistol as a primary weapon can work. Additionally I tend to use a Frontier Justice due to the ease of scoring assists and kills with well placed mini-sentries on certain maps, and the occasional soldier in a hallway you might encounter while traveling to put one in a new location. YMMV, and it's very play-style and map dependent.

Hardcore Defense Engineer:
Loadout: Shotgun (FJ isn't that useful unless your sentry actually dies, and in this situation you probably will go with it), Pistol/Wrangler (map dependent), Jag/Southern Hospitality.
This is what most engineers do on the red side of a payload or attack/defend map. Also seen in CTF maps.
Generally the idea is to find a spot near the objective you're defending, or on the path the other team needs to take to reach that objective, and set up a sentry gun, teleporter, and dispenser. If time is critical set up the sentry and dispenser first, if time isn't critical dump the dispenser first (with a single whack to speed building), then the gun, then the teleporter, then upgrade. During setup time work on getting the sentry and teleporter up, as the teleporter will give you support from teammates and the sentry will stop or slow down non-uber pushes.
You're probably going to be using a combination of defensive and ambush sentry positioning, depending on distance to the objective and what's available. A lot of this depends on map layout, but remember to move ambush positions occasionally, and keep an eye out for stickies, ubers, spies, snipers, and rockets.

Team Support Engineer:
Loadout: any
This is more about building placement and what you as the engineer are doing.
You'll want to have a dispenser and teleporter as your main focuses, in this situation I generally relegate my gun to flank or back-guard, keeping scouts and spies out of the back ranks and then leave it alone.
The dispenser you're going to be moving around and repairing a lot, since you're going to be putting it up, and moving it to wherever your team's focus is. Moving up the teleporter if your team changes spawns or you take new territory is also important. Expect to be spending some time pulling out your shotgun/pistol and shooting at the enemy along with the guys sitting on your dispenser. Keep an ear out for sapper warnings, especially those from other friendly engineers. You can de-sap for them, or at least be aware a spy is in the area hunting buildings. Try and keep your buildings spread out some, so that a single uber can't kill the friendlies sitting on your dispenser, and the dispenser, and the teleporter, and the gun.

Notes
Pre-building, that is building your gear at spawn then carrying it out, is generally not as effective as building your gear in the location you wish to put it. The exception is if there's a teleporter up, in which case it can be effective to quickly build a gun or dispenser at spawn then pick it up and take the teleporter.

Sometimes it's faster to blow up your teleporters and rebuild when both the entry and exit points change (as is common on 5cp maps) rather than physically moving both the entrance and exit.

One of the few hard and fast rules of playing engineer is to never build your gear right next to someone else's if possible. One uber or demo who knows what they're doing and your team just lost two sets of buildings instead of one, plus guns in the same place both have the same blind spots and effective fields of fire. One gun is sufficient to kill most things, a second it redundant if it covers the same area from the same place.

If you do have two engineers, then try and place your teleporters/dispensers/guns so that they compliment each other. Have one gun take the primary spot, and the second gun cover a flank or sniping position that could be dangerous to the main gun. Place teleporters to route your team into different paths, and keep all sides covered.

The facing of your sentry gun is important, for instance in a certain spot on Doublecross specifically, turning the gun's face 45 degrees allows it to kill scouts and others running over the battlements, as the shorter lock on time acquires them while they're still in the field of fire. Try to face your gun so that the primary arc isn't facing any walls and is facing where you expect the enemy to be. This is not as important with mini sentries and their faster lock-on time.
Last edited by One_Medic_Army on Fri Jul 29, 2011 12:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A paranoid person's guide to playing Engineer

Post by One_Medic_Army » Thu Jul 28, 2011 5:00 pm

Enemies:
Here's where I tell you about what to watch out for, and the capabilities of other classes as they relate to you: the engineer.

Spies are your bane, they can instantly kill any class, can disguise and/or go invisible to prevent a gun from shooting them, leech health and ammo off of your dispenser, take your teleporter, and sap your buildings.
Sappers require two hits with an engineer melee to remove (one hit with a homewrecker if you are fortunate enough to have a pyro using one nearby). They deal damage over time to buildings, disable their function, and can be placed by spies without removing their disguise, or dropping their dead-ringer. Do not get into a sap/de-sap war with a spy unless you expect help to come soon, you will loose. If a spy does sap your gear, you have two options: de-sap your gear, or try to engage the spy and drive him off or kill him. This is a hard choice, spend too much time dealing with the spy and he's succeeded in killing your gear, de-sap the gear first and you might end up backstabbed, shot, or in a sap/de-sap war. Generally speaking my response depends on what invisibility watch the spy is using. If they are using the dead-ringer, shoot/wrench them until it activates, then go de-sap your stuff, keeping an eye out for a backstab attempt. If they're using a normal invisibility watch, try to kill them with wrench/gun even once they've turned invisible, keep in mind they'll probably head for a source of health/ammo. Keep an eye on your stuff, and break off pursuit in time to save your dispenser at the very least. Cloak and Dagger spies are at once the most dangerous, since they can approach fully invisible and wait for the opportune moment; and the easiest to deal with, as they can't move very far while cloaked if they try to run away. Generally speaking deal with them as with normal watch spies, but if you notice one make sure to randomly spam shots and wrench swings occasionally in case they're trying to sneak up again.
Keep an eye on your dispenser, some spies like sitting on top of it cloaked, also be wary of any teammate who approaches your gear directly (other than dispensers and teleporter entrances). There is no reason why a friendly demo should be running at your sentry, ditto for a friendly pyro who is not flaming. Treat anyone approaching as a possible spy and shoot them repeatedly. You can also spy-check by running into someone and seeing if you go through. Spies cannot pass through you or your buildings, so keep an eye out for this.
Note on de-sapping teleporters: to de-sap (or upgrade) a teleporter you need to either stand on it or stand next to it and crouch. Under no circumstances should you stand on a teleporter exit while desapping it, make sure you're to the side and crouch. If you're standing on it, and the spy is standing on the sapped entrance, then as soon as you de-sap he will tele-frag you and kill that end of the porter.

Pyros are dangerous in that they can shoot through your buildings and hit you, should you be behind them. They can also hit your gear from around corners, if your stuff is close to a corner. If a pyro comes in at you ubered, run. Your best bet is that someone else on your team blocks them or the uber runs out and they die before your gear. Retreat to a safe distance and repair/rebuild after they're gone. Note that due to short pyro range some gun locations cannot be reached by an uber pyro easily. Also watch out for flaregun sniping pyros if you're standing still, the second hit can kill you. Skilled pyros are capable of single handedly killing your gun with reflected rockets and circle strafing, if you notice a pyro doing this shoot him and watch for reflected rockets coming your way.

Heavies are only dangerous to a lvl 2-3 gun at close and medium range, due to the spread of a heavies minigun, at long ranges most bullets will just miss. The heavy is also slow, so slow that if he is spun up the push from a lvl 3 sentry will cancel out any forward motion he might have. If the heavy is at medium range you stand a chance of sitting behind your gun repairing it, if the heavy is at long range this is your best option.

Soldiers can rocketsnipe your gun if you leave them anywhere that is both in line of sight and out of range. A soldier cannot kill your gun faster than you can repair it, but he can kill it before you get there if you're somewhere else. Watch out for splash from his rockets, try and stand behind your gun or other cover or you may end up dying while trying to repair your gun. You can return fire with a wrangler, but this makes you a much easier target, for everything.

Snipers are much like soldiers, but they'll either be shooting you or your gun. If they shoot you, you're most likely dead, as a charged up shot deals 150 dmg, and a headshot deals minimum 150 damage, you have 125 hitpoints. Your best defense against snipers is to keep cover between you and them, and to randomly crouch, jump, and move to the sides if one's taking aim at you. If they shoot your gun, you can repair it faster than they can kill it. You can return fire with a wrangler, but this makes you a much easier target, for everything.

Demos are tough to deal with if they're skilled, 3 stickies will kill a gun and the engineer standing on it, probably faster than you can pull out a shotgun to blow them off. Wrangled lvl 3 sentry guns take 8 stickies to bring down, additionally you can shoot rockets at the base of the sentry to blow off stickies. If you wrangle your gun you are not repairing it, so be ready for a battle of attrition. Uber demos are worse than pyros, if one comes in just flee and rebuild later.

Scouts can try and pistol snipe your gun, or scattergun you to the face. Additionally they can use bonk to distract your gun or run past it safely. Scouts can even run past a gun normally depending on the area, as they can move faster than the gun tracks. Generally speaking ignore them, repair your stuff, so long as you have a gun up. If you don't have a gun up try and find a team-mate to help or shoot them and hope you come out on top.
Last edited by One_Medic_Army on Thu Jul 28, 2011 6:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A paranoid person's guide to playing Engineer

Post by One_Medic_Army » Thu Jul 28, 2011 5:00 pm

Equipment
Shotgun: 6 shot clip, good damage at close range. Reloads slowly, so make sure to reload if you have free time. If you also use the pistol then it's generally better to switch to pistol if you run out of shotgun rounds in combat.

Frontier Justice: 3 shot clip, no random crits. This is good as a replacement for the normal shotgun only in the situation where your sentry gun is getting kills/assists and is dying with some frequency while you're surviving. As such is works best with offensive or ambush sentries, particularly with mini-sentries, if you can position them so that they do get kills and/or assists.

Pistol: 12 shot clip, fast reload, massive stockpile of ammo, good accuracy, even at maximum range respectable damage, fires quickly. If one shot crits, the entire rest of the clip will crit so long as you're holding down the trigger, for this reason I suggest firing it one clip at a time, by just holding the mouse button down until it's time to reload. good for dealing with enemies at any range past what your shotgun's effective at, or when your shotgun needs to be reloaded. Also good for spy checking, as you can spam shots into any suspect corner.

Wrangler: makes the sentry gun harder to kill, and able to shoot further for more damage. Downsides are that it makes the engineer a bigger and easier target for snipers and spies. The gun will be inactive for several seconds following wrangler usage. The gun no longer auto-targets enemies, which can make it very hard to kill scouts, and also prevents it from targeting that spy that just decloaked behind you. I reserve the wrangler entirely for when I have to defend an area that is much larger then the sentry gun's normal range. Firing on an uber with a wrangler is pointless, though the extra health is not, if you're wrangling your gun against an uber shoot something else, or aim rockets at their feet to blow them into the air. Always be on the move and never stand still while wrangling, as a defense against spies and snipers. If you bump into something behind you stop firing and turn around (or else you'll shoot yourself when you turn around).

Southern Hospitality: Use if you've got a spy bugging you that's not using dead-ringer, the bleed will make it easier to track them when they cloak. Be especially aware of pyros.

The Jag: Sets up your stuff faster, hurts enemies less. One swing with the jag on a building is all you need to have it build faster, so always whack something once when you start building it. Downside is pretty irrelevant in my experience, as melee weapons still do a lot of dmg, and your guns are unaffected.

Gunslinger: see mini-sentry engineer play.
Last edited by One_Medic_Army on Fri Jul 29, 2011 12:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A paranoid person's guide to playing Engineer

Post by The Spanish Inquisition » Thu Jul 28, 2011 7:39 pm

A few more things:

1. Most engie tactics are map specific, to the point of saying exactly where to put gear on a map for different scenarios. It's hard to give general advice on engineer that can't be improved upon greatly by simply watching and paying attention to what other good engineers are doing. A critical timing issue is at the beginning of maps with a setup time on defense or on ctf maps, I have routines that account for every wrench hit. Despite the 'jag one hit builds faster', you generally have to keep hitting your gear with the wrench to get it to build faster than it's normal self building rate. Three engineers all whacking on a building together is amazing sometimes at how fast stuff can go up.

For example, goldrush defense, there is limited ammo available on stage1. It's worth it to build a teleporter set only if there is only one other engineer, three engineers and there will not be enough metal to build stuff once you get to the yard outside their spawn. On turbine, NEVER build a teleporter entrance at the beginning, there is NO TIME because 50 scouts are on route to the intel room. There is 100 metal down there and that's it, you have time to activate a regular level 1 sentry and get a dispenser constructing with the remaining 60-70 metal to repair your sentry when the scout horde arrive in .5seconds.

2. Southern hospitality wrench: Any bleeding damage from a hit becomes repetitive minicrits if the target is peed on or is on fire.

3. A constant dilemma is metal management, do you build a dispenser or put all metal toward making a level 3 sentry. ALWAYS BUILD A DISPENSER. No level3 sentry gun is going to live long unless you have even more metal to repair it with. So even when you are time constrained to build fast, you must realize a dispenser is still worth it. The initial build animations take the most time and that should be done in parallel whenever possible. The animation transistion when a sentry changes levels takes two full wrench swings that you should use instead to hit twice on your dispenser.

Engineer God Challenge: Deploy a spawn facing level3 sentry and level3 protected dispenser on goldrush during the setup time without help from other engineers.
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Re: A paranoid person's guide to playing Engineer

Post by YoullNeverWalkAlone » Mon Nov 28, 2011 8:50 pm

So I am finding myself playing more engi when I'm not a medic now. I found this and Zork's write up tremendously helpful! I have been trying to learn how to be a gunslinger engi and the tricks here are great. I don't know many of the good hiding spots on maps to place the concealed minis, and try to watch other engis and mimic location (tough to do since I play so much medic, but I go pyro a bunch too to protect engis and try to learn from good ones while doing that).

Big problem I have, especially when playing defensive engi, is dealing with spies. There have been too many times when I could tell someone was a spy, they come up , sap my stuff and then....? I shoot them? Hit them? un-sap my stuff? I've tried to clear my SG in the hopes that it will kill him if he decloaks, but against most spies I end up stabbed and the gun sapped anyhow. SHould I go with a different wrench like the SC? I usually use the Jag to aid in building.

Ideas?
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Re: A paranoid person's guide to playing Engineer

Post by Flaming Cheese Wheel » Mon Nov 28, 2011 9:11 pm

The Jag isn't good for hitting Spies (or anyone else) with... it'll help you with building, but if you're attacking a Spy with it its only saving grace is that if you hit the Spy once and the Spy dies, you know he's got a Dead Ringer.

Your sentry can last for a few seconds while you kill the Spy; if you try to de-sap first and the Spy keeps attaching sappers, you'll lose that race because each sapper will do some damage faster than you can repair it. Just don't let the Spy lure you away from your buildings while you kill him; if you have to run back, then the buildings probably won't last long enough. So yeah, I vote for shooting them first and fixing later. Call for help while you're at it.

Don't forget to be proactive, especially if you've got the pistol equipped. If you're already pretty sure someone's a Spy, call them out while pumping them full of lead. You can roam a little ways from your buildings and intercept suspicious people... that also keeps Spies from sneaking up on you as easily as if you're stationary.
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Re: A paranoid person's guide to playing Engineer

Post by Boss Llama » Tue Nov 29, 2011 2:29 pm

I'd echo FCW on some points -

As an Engy, my usual procedure if my gear gets sapped depends on what the spy does next -

If the spy saps and runs, I make sure my back isn't towards the spy, and immediately go for the unsap. If the spy moves in to resap, I switch to my shotgun and unload it in his face from the opposite side of the gear as he comes in to point blank range. If he doesn't return, I'll finish the unsap and then pursue.

If the spy saps and then comes for me, I'll fight him first, using my wrench. Standard wrench has an absurd crit rate if your gun has been doing its job, and you can easily one shot a spy. Without a crit, 2 hits will still get the kill on anything but a DR, and if it's a DR I'm not in immediate danger - the spy is probably running away (or at least will make a very loud noise if he decloaks nearby).

In either case, the moment you have ID'd a spy you should be calling it out on mic and requesting whatever assistance you need. Keep calling it out until that spy is dead or completely out of the area. If it's a DR, call it. If you get the kill, call it. If the spy flees, call it. While a medic is the general voice-leader of a team, an engineer should be extremely vocal about anything in their sphere of operations, and everybody else should be listening to it. Considering the areas an good engy operates in, an assistance call from them should be priority one for any available team member.

----

I've played far more spy than engy (it's still my number 2 class), so from a Spy's perspective, this is what I'd tell you about Engineer self-defense. Never sit in one place. An engy should always be moving around, checking anywhere a spy might be, keeping an eye out for flankers and sneak attacks, and generally being the backfield eyes of the team. I hate hiding somewhere to recharge my cloak, and not being able to do so because I have to keep running from spychecks. Pyros are not the number 1 spychecker in the game - engineers are. Nothing is more worthless than an engineer who screams "spycheck!" at his teammates, while not bothering to do so himself.

Don't leave support range for your nest without letting folks know and preferably assigning a defender (I love an engy that abandons their gear!), but definitely don't sit still. While building, don't just sit facing your object and swing. The timing of the swings is such that you can pivot 180 degrees backwards and then forwards again on every swing, to keep your eyes out for decloaking spies, and to avoid backstabs from those already active. Also, just because you have your back to a wall, doesn't mean you're safe. As a spy, I routinely stab engineers in that position by hopping on to their equipment, then jumping on to their head and stabbing downwards. Either make sure you're close enough to a ceiling that this can't happen, or take action to protect your head with random upward swings, jumping to ensure you don't have a cloaked spy on top of you, etc. Never EVER believe yourself to be safe. There is nothing I love more than an engineer that thinks the action is elsewhere or that his base is impregenable. They make very easy targets.

-----

A final comment re: gun placement. I've found more and more that, contrary to what seems to be the instinct of most beginning engineers, guns are best placed in fairly open areas. A gun shoved in a corner or tucked in an alcove has its firing angles blocked, allows enemy spies to approach from hiding, inhibits the engineer's movement, and provides a backboard for incoming enemy fire. I like to place my guns with just one side protected, to block fire from beyond range, or even fully in the open. The single-wall position minimizes the troubles listed above, and also protects from circle-strafes (the chief weakness of a fully open-field placement). Perhaps its because so many folks do shove guns in corners, open field guns usually provide more trouble for enemies by catching them off guard (surprise is an SG's best ally), and they can last longer, because fewer people have pre-planned routines for destroying them.
Last edited by Boss Llama on Tue Nov 29, 2011 2:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: A paranoid person's guide to playing Engineer

Post by One_Medic_Army » Tue Nov 29, 2011 2:39 pm

Exactly what alizee says.
If you spectate me playing engineer (or any class) some time you can see that I constantly change my facing, and if I see a good spy hiding spot I tend to let loose a random shot or swing on it.
Also be aware of where nearby metal is, a DR or invis watch spy is tied to ammo packs just like you are.
You can bodyblock spies that try to get close to your gear if you see them, bodyblocking with some wrench swings or shotgun fire thrown in is my preferred method of spy checking.

As to de-sap or pursue, check what the spy is doing. If they're doing a sap and run, then de-sap, if they head back for your stuff then pursue an drive off before de-sapping.
The hardest to deal with are C+D or normal watch spies that re-cloak after sapping, since they can remain in the area. Generally I'll spew some random fire then de-sap while spinning in place and throwing a few random wrench swings around to discourage them from stabbing me.

As the thread title implies, I operate on extreme paranoia: spies can be anyone and any-where, stay on guard at all times, and constantly be aware of your surroundings.
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Re: A paranoid person's guide to playing Engineer

Post by YoullNeverWalkAlone » Tue Nov 29, 2011 8:33 pm

Thanks! There is some really good stuff here. I know I have a bad habit of turning my back and banging on my gear, especially with the Jag, I'll have to work on hit and move. Is there somewhere I can find the sound the decloak makes? Im not sure I know what to listen for.

Can you sap a wrangled sentry? Is the bleeding effect of the SH worth equipping vs using the stock wrench and the chance of a crit? I'm not real good at melee to begin with, so the SH holds some appeal to think that I can hit once and the spy will continue to bleed, which might force them to flee.
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Re: A paranoid person's guide to playing Engineer

Post by One_Medic_Army » Tue Nov 29, 2011 9:48 pm

Well DR will negate the bleed effect, unless you hit them after they cloak.
Wrangled sentries can be sapped, though I think they still get the 3 seconds or so of shield against fire (does not prevent sapper dmg I think).

Personally I use the jag all the time, lower melee dmg never really bothered me, since getting into a melee fight with a spy end up in either a facestab, them cloaking, or you winning unless it's a very good spy, regardless of which wrench you use.

Most (not all) spies will flee and try to draw you away from your stuff if you attack them and they've already placed sappers. The real battle is noticing them before they place the sapper, and hopefully killing them/driving them off before they sap, or at least doing enough dmg they can't afford to stick around after sapping.
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Re: A paranoid person's guide to playing Engineer

Post by MateoTheBold! » Tue Nov 29, 2011 11:19 pm

DIscussing the jag previously mentioned, I found this video super useful in deciding whether or not to use it:

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Re: A paranoid person's guide to playing Engineer

Post by YoullNeverWalkAlone » Wed Nov 30, 2011 12:43 am

Soooo, you're saying the Jag is pretty much useless. Well that certainly helps.
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Re: A paranoid person's guide to playing Engineer

Post by Boss Llama » Wed Nov 30, 2011 8:43 am

You'llNeverWalkAlone wrote:Thanks! There is some really good stuff here. I know I have a bad habit of turning my back and banging on my gear, especially with the Jag, I'll have to work on hit and move. Is there somewhere I can find the sound the decloak makes? Im not sure I know what to listen for.

Can you sap a wrangled sentry? Is the bleeding effect of the SH worth equipping vs using the stock wrench and the chance of a crit? I'm not real good at melee to begin with, so the SH holds some appeal to think that I can hit once and the spy will continue to bleed, which might force them to flee.
If you need a refresher on the sound a decloak makes, join an empty server as spy, and start cloaking and decloaking with all the watches. The sound is the same for the engineer as it is for the spy player. The standard watch and C&D sound the same, while the DR is loud enough to awaken the dead. Spies also still make footstep sounds while cloaked, and I routinely chase them down as a Pyro by following the sound. Also listen for the sound of doors opening and closing, health or ammo packs being picked up, and other noises.

On a related note, nobody should ever be listening to music while playing seriously - it makes you unable to hear important audio clues that will help you and your team. This is doubly true for engineers. Know at all times whether your team has a spy, and if so, keep track of where he is. If your team doesn't have a spy (or your spy is dead or really far away), and you hear a cloak sound, you should be hollering "spy!" even if you don't know exactly where or what he is. Keep track of enemy spies by name and watch. Keep an eye on the kill icons and know when spies die, when they're back in action, and once identified, what type of watch they're carrying.

The Wrangler makes you more vulnerable to spies than anything in the game, and shouldn't be used unless you have teammates backing you up on location. Your gun will no longer automatically acquire spies, and you won't even have the beep sound to give you a split-second warning before they knife you in the back. I love wrangler engies, because you can stab them, and still have like five seconds to place your sappers before their gun becomes dangerous. Wrangled gear can also be sapped with no restrictions without killing the engy, if you desire - it's usually easy pickings. If you do that, then the engy is pretty much forced to let the gun die and chase you himself, because even if they stop to unsap it, it will be inactive from putting the wrangler away, and will not join them in fighting the spy. If they do go for the unsap on a wrangled gun, a smart spy simply pauses and shoots them in the head with their revolver of choice, all of which do very high damage at close range. Even if the sapper was removed, they still have time to kill the engy and re-sap safely.

The SH is useless, imo. A well placed SG does enough damage that your regular wrench will crit like mad. A crit will one-hit a spy, whereas the bleed will not do enough to get a kill after the hit, so good spies ignore it and keep doing whatever they were previously doing - fighting or fleeing. If they win the fight, they can just use your dispenser to heal before destroying it, and if they lose the fight, they would have lost anyway, bleeding or not, from the follow-up wrench hit. Long story short, the SH means you cannot get one hit kills on a healthy spy. Also, Pyros are already one of the best anti-nest attack classes because their fire passes through and hits the engy too. The extra vulnerability exacerbates this weakness.
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Re: A paranoid person's guide to playing Engineer

Post by YoullNeverWalkAlone » Wed Nov 30, 2011 11:41 am

It certainly can be helpful to be able to hear ambient sounds, including the dialogue from nearby people, but I find that the sound of gunfire and explosions drown out much of that. Unless no one else is around, I can't say that I can hear the footsteps. Do I just need to adjust my sound?

The wrangler has been good for me for 2 things: the added protection when my gear is getting attacked (either during build or in an uber) and for hitting people who are too far away for the gun to target on its own. Other than that, I don't use it. I've gone to using the pistol when I have the mini, but when I use the regular sentry I'm usually in a defensive position and want the shielding. I've found that placing the sentry down and then switching to the wrangler allows me to protect it for that length of time it sets up. It inevitably draws fire, which hopefully gives my team time to deal with the attacker, and I still have a level one after the attack is finished.

The idea of going on an empty server to check out the sounds is a great one, thanks.
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