TheVille

[quote="Guardian";p="220621"]Admittedly unlike other heavy classes, there can't be many heavies on a team since he's so dependent on the medic, even with the sandvich.[/quote]I read the article up to here, but when I saw this I pretty much assumed that the rest of the article was bologna and stopped reading on the premise that you're obviously talking about competitive TF2 or some other nonsense I don't care about.

A heavy doesn't need a medic like a baby needs a bottle - a heavy without a medic just needs to be smart and careful. Playing as heavy without a medic by you just requires a small shift in strategy, and knowing which battles to fight and which battles to stay away from. Last night I learned a lot from the art of being a sneaky heavy - almost stalking my prey or waiting in cover until someone comes along.

Without a medic, the big things that I personally avoid are snipers (I just avoid them generally), heavies with medics on them, and sentry guns. Aside from that, just knowing when to fight and when to back away will keep you with a positive K/D ratio and be credit to team.

I didn't say the heavy needs a medic on him full time Masakari, I said he needs a medic on the team. Even solo heavies need a medic to heal them up in the middle of a fight. He's still dependent on a medics though.

[quote="Guardian";p="220641"][quote="Bronze Fox";p="220640"][quote="Guardian";p="220638"][quote="!B a T m A n!";p="220637"]u dont allllways need a medic... c:[/quote]

When?[/quote]

When you equip the Sandvich. [/quote]

What about other people?[/quote]

You can drop and share it.

Heavy, The New Medic

[quote="Bronze Fox";p="220698"][quote="Guardian";p="220641"][quote="Bronze Fox";p="220640"][quote="Guardian";p="220638"][quote="!B a T m A n!";p="220637"]u dont allllways need a medic... c:[/quote]

When?[/quote]

When you equip the Sandvich. [/quote]

What about other people?[/quote]

You can drop and share it.

Heavy, The New Medic[/quote]

And the Heavy's thrown Sandvich is instant, none of this waiting for health nonsense!

[quote="Bronze Fox";p="220698"][quote="Guardian";p="220641"][quote="Bronze Fox";p="220640"][quote="Guardian";p="220638"][quote="!B a T m A n!";p="220637"]u dont allllways need a medic... c:[/quote]

When?[/quote]

When you equip the Sandvich. [/quote]

What about other people?[/quote]

You can drop and share it.

Heavy, The New Medic[/quote]

Ahh you got me there.

I wonder what a full team of sandvich heavies would fair.

Now, allow me for a moment to return to my rant about how Soldiers aren't that great of Medic buddies. I've made this Scientific Chart of Science, and now you've no choice but to agree:

As you can see from this Scientific Chart of Science, not only does the Heavy absorb more damage than the leading competitor, his damage output is most strong where his Medic lies. The Soldier also has a fair amount of damage where the Medic lies. Lies dead, because it's not as fast and not as reliable.

EDIT: I realize that the Scout should also bear a snowflake of unreliability. You also might notice that the Demoman has a higher average Shadow of Safety; this is true, as the Demoman doesn't go flying about or jumping all the time as he launches projectiles.

Also, Masakari, I would debate that to be productive, the Heavy does need a Medic when there are a certain number of players on the server.

Skill/awareness of the player being healed is 10 times more important than the class they're playing.

That said, there's a big benefit to healing faster classes than the heavy given you're also not anchored to a slow moving giant target who's screaming to be sniped.

That's why the best "Shadow of Safety" comes from healing a solid wall of teammates. The only thing you have to fear when you have that going is fire and backstabs (and headshots if you're not ducking and weaving enough).

And yes, the closer the enemies are to you, the more importance skill comes into play. When it comes right down to it, a lackluster Heavy is indeed worse than a skillful Scout. On the other hand, if the Scout has bad luck, a lackluster Heavy IS better, as if you can make your assailant switch targets, it'll take longer for the Heavy to go down as you run for the hills.

I still think the soldier's shadow of safety is a lot larger, after all why would comp players trust the soldier with the duty of being pocket. They must be a the very least have a shadow of safety greater then a max of 60%.

and because I've utter the word comp, masakari will surely jump on me pointing out that "COMP TF2 ISN"T TF2 HURR DURR"!

[quote="TheCarpe";p="220706"][quote="Bronze Fox";p="220698"][quote="Guardian";p="220641"][quote="Bronze Fox";p="220640"][quote="Guardian";p="220638"][quote="!B a T m A n!";p="220637"]u dont allllways need a medic... c:[/quote]

When?[/quote]

When you equip the Sandvich. [/quote]

What about other people?[/quote]

You can drop and share it.

Heavy, The New Medic[/quote]

And the Heavy's thrown Sandvich is instant, none of this waiting for health nonsense![/quote]

Don't forget our good friend Dispenser!

[flash width=425 height=344]http://www.youtube.com/v/HTtayjVPSxw&hl=en_US&fs=1&[/flash]

Not only is it versatile, but it clearly shows that it is infinitely better than a medic.

[quote="abiscuit";p="220735"][quote="TheCarpe";p="220706"][quote="Bronze Fox";p="220698"][quote="Guardian";p="220641"][quote="Bronze Fox";p="220640"][quote="Guardian";p="220638"][quote="!B a T m A n!";p="220637"]u dont allllways need a medic... c:[/quote]

When?[/quote]

When you equip the Sandvich. [/quote]

What about other people?[/quote]

You can drop and share it.

Heavy, The New Medic[/quote]

And the Heavy's thrown Sandvich is instant, none of this waiting for health nonsense![/quote]

Don't forget our good friend Dispenser!

[flash width=425 height=344]http://www.youtube.com/v/HTtayjVPSxw&hl=en_US&fs=1&[/flash]

Not only is it versatile, but it clearly shows that it is infinitely better than a medic.[/quote]

This one's better:

[flash width=425 height=344]http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/tAIAwVrzY2A[/flash]

Soldiers guard the medic because heavies are too slow for competitive play - matches can be determined by who is faster. Heavies may very well be better medic defense, I don't know.

There are large differences between competitive and public matches, the biggest being number of players involved. You can't so easily compare the two.

[quote="Guardian";p="220734"]I still think the soldier's shadow of safety is a lot larger, after all why would comp players trust the soldier with the duty of being pocket. They must be a the very least have a shadow of safety greater then a max of 60%. [/quote]

You play by my rules, you... earn my respect, actually. I'll detail my explanation for this: when a guy's healing a Soldier on the frontlines, people think they can dodge his rockets. And they can. How are you going to stop that mad Soldier, then? Kill the Medic. A simple mantra that works well when they've got just a Soldier to worry about. In retrospect, when there's more than just a Medic and a Soldier, the Shadow of Safety really does increase to more than 60%: the Soldier is less likely to bound about like a madman letting every stray bit of hurt hit the Medic, who's just trying to keep the Soldier from blasting himself into oblivion. This Shadow of Safety I threw up there for Science, however, is not based on group tactics, nor is it based on competitive TF2.

The Soldier, like the Heavy, is easy to maneuver around to the Medic. Unlike the Heavy, however, a Medic moving around the Soldier to keep in his Shadow doesn't always work, as the Soldier presents less of an immediate threat than the Heavy, and once again, is more likely to dodge vertically. The best Soldiers are often the worst in this way: they're cocky crocket-lobbers who'll abandon their Medic at a moment's notice to preserve their crocket-lobbing life.

Before I go blabbing about this any further, however, I will admit I am biased. Entrusting my life to a Soldier is one of the surest ways I, at the very least, end up at the spawn fuming. They just won't stay on the ground, and they just won't kill flanking sneaks fast enough! *sniff* It's like those Pikmin! Those Pikmin that get left behind when Olimar blasts off with his rocket launcher, leaving them to be eaten by hungry monsters! In the end, I like Soldiers in packs. There's always at least one who can take a hit for me that I can heal for him. When it comes to Ubers, however, I refuse to rush into the enemy lines with a Soldier in tow. As soon as the Uber's over... He'll be blasting off. Kritzcharges are a different matter: when a Soldier's kritchin' for some kills, he won't be so quick to fly.

SO! Until I can find a Soldier who remembers who's healing him until the bitter, bitter end, I'll be wary of following them.

[quote="Guardian";p="220734"]
I still think the soldier's shadow of safety is a lot larger, after all why would comp players trust the soldier with the duty of being pocket. They must be a the very least have a shadow of safety greater then a max of 60%.

and because I've utter the word comp, masakari will surely jump on me pointing out that "COMP TF2 ISN"T TF2 HURR DURR"!
[/quote]Nothing like a good challenge. Well, I think Nick says it best:[quote="Nick Mame";p="220741"]There are large differences between competitive and public matches, the biggest being number of players involved. You can't so easily compare the two.[/quote]Yes, a good soldier might be equal to an average heavy, but if you're talking on average then the soldier shouldn't even come into play. The second you mention the word "competitive" into your arguement for this, you've lost all credibility for regular people who play here (AKA about 98% of the people here) - it's the same as talking about playing sports for fun with a couple of friends, and then mentioning how someone should do something because it works better in a professional setting with specifically set teams.

And Comp TF2 isn't TF2....it's just a ridiculously small percentage of it. Not overly impressed with it.

Those aren't the best soldiers, then, just the most skilled DMers. You want a solly who is thinking team first, if you can get one for a pocket.

I've soured a lot on heavies lately, so many people playing heavy outside of the really good ones, just assume I am healing them and following them and that no one will ever attack me and ignore my pleas to turn around and shoot the guy behind him that's killing me. They just run out blindly and get way ahead of the team leaving me in a position of trying to eke out a last stand or fleeing a long way alone back to the rest of the team.

Mostly if the teams are 10 or more, I am trying to keep everyone healed as much as possible, pocketing makes little sense in those situations, my ability to pay attention and keep the team alive is key, not making pushes with one guy who tries to defend me.