[WIP]cp_matterhorn

[HojoTheGreat]

Hey all, I frequent the servers now and then and have always appreciated the effort and quality put into running them, so cheers!

I've been mapping for a bit now, and have a map in its final alpha stages, however before I move into beta I was hoping to have it tested on a broader population. Thus I was wondering if you guys would consider giving it a try and offer me some extra feedback.

To avoid spamming the thread, here's a link to the map's discussion thread, and from there a download link can be found if you find it interesting:

CP_Matterhorn

It is a 5 CP Attack/Defend Style, sort of a combination of Steel and Gravel Pit. It has a bit of a higher learning curve (takes about a full Attack/Defend cycle to get used to) but after learning the map it is quite straight forward and most people seem to have a lot of fun with it. So give it a look-see and let me know what you think!

[Guardian]

Your in luck, we need to add more A/D that looks pretty good.

Word of warning thou, this community is highly critical of custom maps and we try to have the best customs possible. Still if your looking for feedback, we've played customs enough to point out even the most minor problem in a map.

From a quick glance it looks fun, I personally like steel... I wonder why no one likes it...

[HojoTheGreat]

Like I say, it's a tough learning curve. It's much more simple a design than steel so it takes less time to learn, but a lot of people don't have the...patience, to go a full round without becoming hypercritical.

And hey, I'm looking for knowledgable criticism, regardless of the brutality . How else can I improve it ^ ^.

I do need to emphasize that it IS an alpha however, so the key focus atm is making sure the layout, cap times, respawn times etc. are just right.

[Guardian]

Hmmm I just downloaded it and ran through it

Thou I want to wait to see it in action first, one complaint I can make right away is the map seems kind of cramped.I would be hard to play a scout on this map.

[Infusions]

Well, the majority of the time, I play Spy, so I can't really speak for what's good for Engineers or Soldiers or whatnot. I had ran through the map back when it was a7 and thought it was interesting. I thought there were a lot of bare spots, but now that I see most of those bare spots have been filled in this version, I am quite happy!

A couple of notes, though.


A lot of areas are really dark. I would turn the lighting up on those. Especially areas like the screenshot up above (Point A). It wouldn't even hurt to turn the lighting up a bit in the spawn room.





I would say widen this hallway (Connector from A to B) to be the same, or almost the same, size as the second screenshot. Again, speaking for Spy here. The first shot hallway can only fit one person at a time in it. If you widened it, it would allow Spies to hug the wall while cloaked and let the enemy pass through and decloak behind them. It would also allow for a bit more fighting/dodging room. Especially since there's a gate there, you don't know what's going to come up ahead.





Add a couple of props in these areas. Not too many to clutter it up, but one or two props can probably really make a difference if you're fighting a Heavy and need to dodge behind something for cover, or playing Scout and want to use the props to leap off of and confuse the enemy by strafing around their head, or even as a Spy to cloak behind and break contact if you're caught.





The stairs from D to the vents that go to E lead to nowhere, and feel a bit empty. I would suggest either adding a tiny health pack up there to benefit any lone wolves (or, durrr, spies) that happen to be hiding up there. Either that, or just cut the turn entirely.




And one final note, if a team captures both A and B, they can do to C, D, and E. They can travel to E by going through D. The problem is, you can't get OUT of E. I don't know if you intended to make it a risk to people who wanted to try capping E ahead of time, but it feels like trapping someone entirely would be too much of a risk. I wouldn't know where to put an exit route in, though.

I'm not very good with judging capping times, respawn times, or figuring out good health/ammo pack placement by myself. And as for the Scouts having a hard time on it, I don't play Scout (I've only recently started dabbling with him), but it doesn't look too cramped to me. Scouts also don't benefit from the majority of maps, customs or stocks, so if we based a map's layout on whether or not a Scout could play on it effectively, about 75% of the maps would need to be changed. Spies, Snipers, Scouts, and (sometimes) Heavies don't benefit as much as the other classes on most maps. It's more important to see if a class is overpowered on a map (Demomen on Toy Fort, Snipers on Mach4) than if every class can play on the map equally.

Of course, there are times when you should make sure a needed class has SOME advantage on a map. Like if an Engineer has no good sentry spots on an attack/defend map, that's a bad sign.

[HojoTheGreat]

Alright, Matterhorn has been updated to Alpha 9, and can be found at the same location HERE.

I've fixed a couple of the things you've mentioned Infusions, cheers! Hope you guys have fun with it if it is played

[l3eeron]

This map looks awesome, thanks!


I'd like to see it in action....

[HojoTheGreat]

Matterhorn has been updated!

Download

Alpha 10 - April 23, 2009

Extract with 7Zip or WinRAR to:
C:\Program Files\Steam\SteamApps\USERNAME\team fortress 2\tf\maps

Changes:
- Reduced the file size by over half!
- Respawn times continue to be played with.

• Default Max spawn times: Red = 20, Blue = 8

• Max after C AND D have been captured: Red = 24, Blue = 4

- Blue now requires an additional 2 seconds to capture
- Capture time rewards reduced

• A = 120 secs

• B = 120 secs

• C = 150 secs

• D = 150 secs

- Reduced the opening speed on the sewer doors after A is capped
- Capturing E now awards Blue with 2 points
- Extended the E room
- Moved the D > E vent to the left and raised it
- Added some props to the B > D path for cover
- Added soundscapes
- Added env_sun (not lined up however)
- Added spectator cameras
- Fixed a number of clipping issues

Known issues:
- Some clipping issues may arise, PLEASE REPORT THEM!
- The env_sun is not lined up properly
- The D > E circular door can get jammed, but will eventually close

Things to do:
- Finish final lighting
- Continue detailing
- Adjust spawn times as needed
- Tinker with soundscapes

[l3eeron]

dling

[Guardian]

Alright Hojo after playing your map, I have to give some critiques.

I'm afraid your map has a severe case of DUSTBOWL SYNDROME .

It's a deadly and sadly common disease that kills many maps every year before they even take shape .

It chokes certain classes out of a map and makes certain other classes overpowered and spam extremely common.

Your lucky your map is in alpha which means dustbowl syndrome is still in an early stage and it is still cureable but it'll require some drastic treatment. The only way to cure dustbowl syndrome is if you treat every single one of it's symptoms:

1. Cramp areas:

This is the common symptom of dustbowl syndrome. Cramped small areas slowly decrease the amount of scouts and spies in an area and increase the amount of demos pyros and spam in general. This wears on the gameplay of a map until it's unplayable and this sympton must be treated immediately. The dustbowl syndrome virus is concentrated around A and E and somewhat around B. C shows some signs of the virus but can be ignored and D seems fine for now.

2. Lack of Blue spawn exits:

Blue can no longer leave their spawn if the spam from dustbowl syndrome becomes too bad. The only way to treat it, is to either add more exits or widen the existing exits.

3. Close Red spawn to final point.

This is the most out of control symptom. Red has close proximity to E and multiple flanking routes that surround blue on all sides. Treating this with longer red respawn times will only delay this. You must move the red spawn somehow or close certain exits when D or C is capped or something. It's the only way to save your map.



I know Hojo that it may seem costly to treat dustbowl syndrome but I'm afraid if you don't act now, your map will expire before leaves alpha. It's not too late for this map. You can save it with some time and effort and make it balanced for all classes.

[itchy]

Copy-pasted from the TV2 Discussion thread:

From what we played of it, two big things came to mind:

1. Simplicity is better than complexity. I never really learned the map. Thankfully, you have enough signs pointing around that I could always find my way to where I needed to be, but I was always relying on those signs. If you look to all of the Valve maps, there's rarely ever any uncertainty about where you're supposed to be going. It might be wise to lop off a route or two just to make the experience a bit more streamlined.

2. Don't let respawn times be a crutch. Yes, maps are often evened out by spawn times, but don't let that be your fallback. Having the enemy spawn that close to the final point with the cap times as long as they are doesn't make for a very strategic attack/defense. Overall, you should think about lowering the cap times, lowering the respawn times (just a bit), and making the routes a little less chaos-inducing. On the final point for example, one (of two) attack routes goes straight past the enemy spawn. If the attackers avoid that route, then the enemy can use it to get behind them, if they go that route, they're dealing with spawn waves - it's kind of a lose-lose for the attackers.

[HojoTheGreat]

Alright, so I have read the critiques and been present on the server to hear the feedback of players, and I'm hearing and reading things that I have heard a lot in the past that change specifically in regard to my map.

First, my take. The map is designed in a specific way, OFFERING complexity over simplicity for a different kind of map. Obviously simple maps are the easiest to learn and cater to a wider audience, but my goal was to make a map that asks it players to think a bit before they take it on. I'm aware of the steeper learning curve and expect it to turn certain players off from it, however every person who has spent more than a match on it has enjoyed it, much like many people enjoy Steel once they learn the layout. And in all honesty, Matterhorn is much easier to learn than Steel.

It's ironic that you feel the map is too cramped in places, because you're actually the first person to say so hahah. Everyone who ever had a problem with scale felt it was too OPEN. I've managed to find a median I think is fair, and I don't really see the error at this stage. Every area offers breathing room for Scouts to run around, or at the very least hit from a distance, and Spies as well have plenty of room to move in key areas. A is designed to be more cramped, but clever players can sneak around quite easily. The only reason E is difficult to attack as a Spy is because by that time it will be full of Red players, I'm not sure what you really expect.

Blue will NEVER be spawn camped to the point that they cannot exit their spawn. The only reason people complain about that is because they forget they can go left out of spawn instead of right. Sure it takes a bit longer to get to where you want to go, but that's the cost of an alternate route. If Red has the balls and the skill to camp an exit, I condone that. It's up to Blue to figure out how to counter it. Besides, by Red doing so, they're leaving themselves open on the other side.

Red Spawn, however, IS a problem I recognize and plan to address. I'm still debating on how to handle that, but have a reasonable solution in mind. While I do feel having the spawn DIRECTLY next to the point is overpowered, I do not feel having it near is, and as such it will remain close to its relative location.

Just to be clear, I'm not at all acting defensive about the criticism! To be honest, I'm almost honored by the comparison to Dustbowl lol, it's my favorite map by far. But the reality is that I've seen players play EVERY class effectively on both Dustbowl and Matterhorn, it just requires a more thorough knowledge of the maps, and yes, in some cases a little extra skill. I know Matterhorn is a bit more complex, and requires a fair bit more teamwork, but I've seen the payoff and people have really enjoyed it when it works.

So while there are things I do not plan to address, short of receiving effective ideas from you guys for layout changes that I feel are worthwhile, I do agree with other things and plan to address them in later versions. So thank you for the feedback, and if Matterhorn remains on the server, please keep playing it and keep me updated on how you feel about it!

A new version will be out this weekend to fix a problem where E could not be captured early, and I'll try and slip in the refined spawnroom as well. After that however I plan to spend a lot of time working on the first Beta.

[HojoTheGreat]

Alright, Matterhorn has been updated, removing the troublesome spawnroom and moving it beneath E:


It also now exits inside the E lobby, and I added a connecting path from the other spawn by C:


The hallway between D and E is pretty bare right now, apologies, however if this change goes over smoothly then I can move into the Beta stage and put some real work into detailing and tweaking every hallway and room.

Thanks for the great feedback, keep it coming

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