CTF Camping Trip [Final]
Re: CTF Camping Trip [BETA4.5]
Wow you've really put a lot of work into this one Ian! I'm loving it, but I'm easy to please. 
I have a butt and you do too. Let's be friends.
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The best, the best, the best playtest yet. Even when I moved over to the losing team, I felt like we still had a chance and was heartily enjoying myself.
However, I think perhaps it plays too much like Turbine now. People have more flexibility in the ways they leave their spawn room, but do they always take them? The front door is so much easier. I'm thinking it might be a good idea to change the barrels outside the spawn to allow you to clamber over the fence, which is how it used to be.
Other noteworthy things include the difficult to escape displacement problem next to the vent entrance and the lack of ammunition at the center.
What do you think? Is a B5 worthy of being in the Total Warz? Or does it still need far more work?
However, I think perhaps it plays too much like Turbine now. People have more flexibility in the ways they leave their spawn room, but do they always take them? The front door is so much easier. I'm thinking it might be a good idea to change the barrels outside the spawn to allow you to clamber over the fence, which is how it used to be.
Other noteworthy things include the difficult to escape displacement problem next to the vent entrance and the lack of ammunition at the center.
What do you think? Is a B5 worthy of being in the Total Warz? Or does it still need far more work?
Well Ian, I have to say, the map plays much better now. The whole push to the intel room gameplay is fun 
. The layout is overall a lot less claustrophobic and you can now actually play as a scout. I saw all 9 classes being used effectively last time.
That being said it probably still has a long way to go.
The biggest issue I have now is the ammo and med pack placement. Especially outside.
Most areas are missing quite a few ammo boxes and med packs I suggest you add a few (a little ammo pack can go a long way). Also there are a couple strange ones like the large medpack on the right which I suggest you decrease to medium size.
Like for example personally I would like to see a medium ammo pack and a small medkit under the bridge.
Also one more thing. You can rocket jump, sticky jump or double jump out of spawn, I suggest you add a ramp or something and make it so most classes can do this to go straight to the middle.
. The layout is overall a lot less claustrophobic and you can now actually play as a scout. I saw all 9 classes being used effectively last time.That being said it probably still has a long way to go.
The biggest issue I have now is the ammo and med pack placement. Especially outside.
Most areas are missing quite a few ammo boxes and med packs I suggest you add a few (a little ammo pack can go a long way). Also there are a couple strange ones like the large medpack on the right which I suggest you decrease to medium size.
Like for example personally I would like to see a medium ammo pack and a small medkit under the bridge.
Also one more thing. You can rocket jump, sticky jump or double jump out of spawn, I suggest you add a ramp or something and make it so most classes can do this to go straight to the middle.
Last edited by Guardian on Wed Apr 15, 2009 11:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: CTF Camping Trip [BETA4.5]
Let me start off by saying that this version plays 100% better than the previous version (in my opinion). It feels much better, the action is more balanced, and things look good. I think there's still some room for improvement, but at this point, I think we're more at the "dialing it in" stage rather than the "needs drastic overhauls" stage. I went ahead and got another batch of screenshots with some suggestions. Some are just preference, some are more gampelay-centric.
I understand the purpose of that tree. It's to help shield people coming out of spawn and discourage shooting over in that direction. But it's a bit of a double-edged sword. It makes that spawn exit very confusing, despite the arrows as you come out. You might benefit from adding one of those really large flashing arrows pointing right on the wall in this screenshot. Garish, maybe, but they're certainly the most noticeable of all the indicators.
Minor fix: You can get almost stuck down in this little crevice. You can scoot out, but just some simple displacement shifts should fix this easy.
Minor fix: This part of the "street" remains a little problematic. If you come at it from the wrong side, you still have to "climb" it a little bit. Again, should be an easy fix.
Minor fix: Because of the way the truck clips, you can't actually pick up this medkit. Move it upward a bit, and it should be fine.
Potential gameplay change: If you cut off that one side of the banister, most classes will be able to use that little hill to jump up there and cut a bit off of their travel time. Currently Scouts can do it, but I think it'd be good to let everyone do it.
This is probably the biggest alteration I'm going to suggest, but I think it could address a lot of the concerns I've been hearing from people. This is the wall that separates the spawn area from the middle. Currently only Soldiers, Demos, and Scouts can get over it, making it a rather exclusive route. I think if you made a ramp up that let every class hop this wall, it would be the last bit of necessary improvement. It wouldn't entirely negate the back route, since that's how most enemies will be getting into the base, but it would reduce the distance you have to travel to get to the enemy base - and being one-way, wouldn't allow people to just hop back to that resupply locker when battling in the middle. That would also make the exit of the spawn a little less confusing. The "natural" way to come out of the spawn currently just takes you into that wall.
Most of my other suggestions would just be minor aesthetic things, so I won't bother with them. I know some others have some minor worries about the under-bridge area and the intel room, but I'll let them voice those. I think we've got a winner on our hands here, it just needs that last little bit of tweaking to perfect.
I understand the purpose of that tree. It's to help shield people coming out of spawn and discourage shooting over in that direction. But it's a bit of a double-edged sword. It makes that spawn exit very confusing, despite the arrows as you come out. You might benefit from adding one of those really large flashing arrows pointing right on the wall in this screenshot. Garish, maybe, but they're certainly the most noticeable of all the indicators.
Minor fix: You can get almost stuck down in this little crevice. You can scoot out, but just some simple displacement shifts should fix this easy.
Minor fix: This part of the "street" remains a little problematic. If you come at it from the wrong side, you still have to "climb" it a little bit. Again, should be an easy fix.
Minor fix: Because of the way the truck clips, you can't actually pick up this medkit. Move it upward a bit, and it should be fine.
Potential gameplay change: If you cut off that one side of the banister, most classes will be able to use that little hill to jump up there and cut a bit off of their travel time. Currently Scouts can do it, but I think it'd be good to let everyone do it.
This is probably the biggest alteration I'm going to suggest, but I think it could address a lot of the concerns I've been hearing from people. This is the wall that separates the spawn area from the middle. Currently only Soldiers, Demos, and Scouts can get over it, making it a rather exclusive route. I think if you made a ramp up that let every class hop this wall, it would be the last bit of necessary improvement. It wouldn't entirely negate the back route, since that's how most enemies will be getting into the base, but it would reduce the distance you have to travel to get to the enemy base - and being one-way, wouldn't allow people to just hop back to that resupply locker when battling in the middle. That would also make the exit of the spawn a little less confusing. The "natural" way to come out of the spawn currently just takes you into that wall.
Most of my other suggestions would just be minor aesthetic things, so I won't bother with them. I know some others have some minor worries about the under-bridge area and the intel room, but I'll let them voice those. I think we've got a winner on our hands here, it just needs that last little bit of tweaking to perfect.
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Re: CTF Camping Trip [BETA4.5]
[quote="itchy";p="166613"]Let me start off by saying that this version plays 100% better than the previous version (in my opinion). It feels much better, the action is more balanced, and things look good. I think there's still some room for improvement, but at this point, I think we're more at the "dialing it in" stage rather than the "needs drastic overhauls" stage. I went ahead and got another batch of screenshots with some suggestions. Some are just preference, some are more gampelay-centric.
I understand the purpose of that tree. It's to help shield people coming out of spawn and discourage shooting over in that direction. But it's a bit of a double-edged sword. It makes that spawn exit very confusing, despite the arrows as you come out. You might benefit from adding one of those really large flashing arrows pointing right on the wall in this screenshot. Garish, maybe, but they're certainly the most noticeable of all the indicators.
Minor fix: You can get almost stuck down in this little crevice. You can scoot out, but just some simple displacement shifts should fix this easy.
Minor fix: This part of the "street" remains a little problematic. If you come at it from the wrong side, you still have to "climb" it a little bit. Again, should be an easy fix.
Minor fix: Because of the way the truck clips, you can't actually pick up this medkit. Move it upward a bit, and it should be fine.
Potential gameplay change: If you cut off that one side of the banister, most classes will be able to use that little hill to jump up there and cut a bit off of their travel time. Currently Scouts can do it, but I think it'd be good to let everyone do it.
This is probably the biggest alteration I'm going to suggest, but I think it could address a lot of the concerns I've been hearing from people. This is the wall that separates the spawn area from the middle. Currently only Soldiers, Demos, and Scouts can get over it, making it a rather exclusive route. I think if you made a ramp up that let every class hop this wall, it would be the last bit of necessary improvement. It wouldn't entirely negate the back route, since that's how most enemies will be getting into the base, but it would reduce the distance you have to travel to get to the enemy base - and being one-way, wouldn't allow people to just hop back to that resupply locker when battling in the middle. That would also make the exit of the spawn a little less confusing. The "natural" way to come out of the spawn currently just takes you into that wall.
Most of my other suggestions would just be minor aesthetic things, so I won't bother with them. I know some others have some minor worries about the under-bridge area and the intel room, but I'll let them voice those. I think we've got a winner on our hands here, it just needs that last little bit of tweaking to perfect.[/quote]
I agree with pretty much all of this.
I would also make the bridge wider/ get rid of the middle pole in it so you have more freedom in the water http://f.imagehost.org/0647/ctf_camping ... v20006.jpg
Make the vents a lot less shiny. They stand out way too much imo.
Make this window so you can jump out of it without taking damage. http://f.imagehost.org/view/0112/ctf_ca ... p_b4v20003
More that I'm forgetting I'm sure but that's all I can think of now.
I understand the purpose of that tree. It's to help shield people coming out of spawn and discourage shooting over in that direction. But it's a bit of a double-edged sword. It makes that spawn exit very confusing, despite the arrows as you come out. You might benefit from adding one of those really large flashing arrows pointing right on the wall in this screenshot. Garish, maybe, but they're certainly the most noticeable of all the indicators.
Minor fix: You can get almost stuck down in this little crevice. You can scoot out, but just some simple displacement shifts should fix this easy.
Minor fix: This part of the "street" remains a little problematic. If you come at it from the wrong side, you still have to "climb" it a little bit. Again, should be an easy fix.
Minor fix: Because of the way the truck clips, you can't actually pick up this medkit. Move it upward a bit, and it should be fine.
Potential gameplay change: If you cut off that one side of the banister, most classes will be able to use that little hill to jump up there and cut a bit off of their travel time. Currently Scouts can do it, but I think it'd be good to let everyone do it.
This is probably the biggest alteration I'm going to suggest, but I think it could address a lot of the concerns I've been hearing from people. This is the wall that separates the spawn area from the middle. Currently only Soldiers, Demos, and Scouts can get over it, making it a rather exclusive route. I think if you made a ramp up that let every class hop this wall, it would be the last bit of necessary improvement. It wouldn't entirely negate the back route, since that's how most enemies will be getting into the base, but it would reduce the distance you have to travel to get to the enemy base - and being one-way, wouldn't allow people to just hop back to that resupply locker when battling in the middle. That would also make the exit of the spawn a little less confusing. The "natural" way to come out of the spawn currently just takes you into that wall.
Most of my other suggestions would just be minor aesthetic things, so I won't bother with them. I know some others have some minor worries about the under-bridge area and the intel room, but I'll let them voice those. I think we've got a winner on our hands here, it just needs that last little bit of tweaking to perfect.[/quote]
I agree with pretty much all of this.
I would also make the bridge wider/ get rid of the middle pole in it so you have more freedom in the water http://f.imagehost.org/0647/ctf_camping ... v20006.jpg
Make the vents a lot less shiny. They stand out way too much imo.
Make this window so you can jump out of it without taking damage. http://f.imagehost.org/view/0112/ctf_ca ... p_b4v20003
More that I'm forgetting I'm sure but that's all I can think of now.
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Indeed, the unanimous voice is to complete the barrel staircase I mentioned in my previous post. Understood!
Some good points there, Itchy! Not a single one will be left unenacted upon. I would encourage you to mention your aesthetic things as well, as I do weigh every remark made. I also tend to be pretty meticulous about the visual presentation of my larger maps.
eraD, thank you for your comments! Although I can't make the bridge any wider or remove the supports (I'm using a model for that...), I can definitely add more cubemaps to make the vents less shiny, and I can definitely create a way to prevent damage from jumping out the bathroom window. In fact, I could use the idea behind the late fire towers' fire poles to slow your decent!
Some good points there, Itchy! Not a single one will be left unenacted upon. I would encourage you to mention your aesthetic things as well, as I do weigh every remark made. I also tend to be pretty meticulous about the visual presentation of my larger maps.
eraD, thank you for your comments! Although I can't make the bridge any wider or remove the supports (I'm using a model for that...), I can definitely add more cubemaps to make the vents less shiny, and I can definitely create a way to prevent damage from jumping out the bathroom window. In fact, I could use the idea behind the late fire towers' fire poles to slow your decent!
[quote="Ian_Suffix";p="166619"]Indeed, the unanimous voice is to complete the barrel staircase I mentioned in my previous post. Understood!
Some good points there, Itchy! Not a single one will be left unenacted upon. I would encourage you to mention your aesthetic things as well, as I do weigh every remark made. I also tend to be pretty meticulous about the visual presentation of my larger maps.[/quote]
One thing to be wary of, though, completing that ramp: you need the default spawn timer to be long enough that it's not just a perpetual slug-fest on the bridge. You don't want people spawning so fast that people have to fight their opponents twice to get into the base. They might be fine as-is, I'm not sure. I didn't pay too much attention to how long they were.
As for the aesthetic things, the biggest I can think of is in eraD's screenshot (http://f.imagehost.org/view/0112/ctf_ca ... p_b4v20003) those walls look pretty barren. They could use either some more windows, some pipes, or at very least a RED/BLU logo.
Some good points there, Itchy! Not a single one will be left unenacted upon. I would encourage you to mention your aesthetic things as well, as I do weigh every remark made. I also tend to be pretty meticulous about the visual presentation of my larger maps.[/quote]
One thing to be wary of, though, completing that ramp: you need the default spawn timer to be long enough that it's not just a perpetual slug-fest on the bridge. You don't want people spawning so fast that people have to fight their opponents twice to get into the base. They might be fine as-is, I'm not sure. I didn't pay too much attention to how long they were.
As for the aesthetic things, the biggest I can think of is in eraD's screenshot (http://f.imagehost.org/view/0112/ctf_ca ... p_b4v20003) those walls look pretty barren. They could use either some more windows, some pipes, or at very least a RED/BLU logo.
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[quote="itchy";p="166630"]
One thing to be wary of, though, completing that ramp: you need the default spawn timer to be long enough that it's not just a perpetual slug-fest on the bridge. You don't want people spawning so fast that people have to fight their opponents twice to get into the base. They might be fine as-is, I'm not sure. I didn't pay too much attention to how long they were.
[/quote]
The default respawn timer is pretty long.
Still to discourage other classes from simply rushing over, you could make it awkward to jump over the fence (make it so you have to jump on each and every barrel with a crouch jump to cover the full height as a regular class. It would make it possible but annoying if you die immediately thus encouraging a losing team to go the long way to defeat the pressing team.
One thing to be wary of, though, completing that ramp: you need the default spawn timer to be long enough that it's not just a perpetual slug-fest on the bridge. You don't want people spawning so fast that people have to fight their opponents twice to get into the base. They might be fine as-is, I'm not sure. I didn't pay too much attention to how long they were.
[/quote]
The default respawn timer is pretty long.
Still to discourage other classes from simply rushing over, you could make it awkward to jump over the fence (make it so you have to jump on each and every barrel with a crouch jump to cover the full height as a regular class. It would make it possible but annoying if you die immediately thus encouraging a losing team to go the long way to defeat the pressing team.
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Re: CTF Camping Trip [BETA4.5]
The more I think about it, the more I'm actually worried about what completing that ramp might do to gameplay. As it is right now, the attacking team could end up having a wave of defenders coming from in front and behind, since they only have the one way to get to the backyard area. I think you might actually want to re-open (one-way, still) the sewers. That'll give a slightly different route to get to the vents that won't be quite as exposed to spawning defenders. Just a thought.
Also, something purely aesthetic, that I think could alleviate another concern I've heard: You might want to make the front of the base LOOK like the front of a base without necessarily adding an entrance over there. Make it all blockaded off or something, with some arrows to the back so people don't get confused. Make the door that you enter through more of a "back door" entrance. Again, you don't really need to change the design of the map much, but aesthetically, it'll make a little more "sense" without requiring any drastic changes. It looks a bit strange as is, because the only thing you see when charging the enemy base is a giant vent.
[quote="Jesus_Faction";p="166711"]All i know is that I couldn't walk up the ramp after i left the sewers to try to take the intel back to my base.[/quote]
Maybe you could get a screenshot of the ramp you're talking about?
Also, something purely aesthetic, that I think could alleviate another concern I've heard: You might want to make the front of the base LOOK like the front of a base without necessarily adding an entrance over there. Make it all blockaded off or something, with some arrows to the back so people don't get confused. Make the door that you enter through more of a "back door" entrance. Again, you don't really need to change the design of the map much, but aesthetically, it'll make a little more "sense" without requiring any drastic changes. It looks a bit strange as is, because the only thing you see when charging the enemy base is a giant vent.
[quote="Jesus_Faction";p="166711"]All i know is that I couldn't walk up the ramp after i left the sewers to try to take the intel back to my base.[/quote]
Maybe you could get a screenshot of the ramp you're talking about?
Last edited by itchy on Thu Apr 16, 2009 10:43 am, edited 2 times in total.
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A couple of suggestions of my own:
Demomen and Soldiers are able to get onto the top of the vents here, and since (the majority of us) only had one way of getting to the bridge, they were just able to spam explosives on the corner whenever they saw something move. Perhaps making it so they can't jump up there? I don't know if it'll be as bad when there's two ways of getting out.
Really minor, but I think the ground in this water area needs to be flattened out. It's bumpy and a bit odd to run on. It's also hard to get out because of this part:
I think just elevating that ground in the water a bit would fix it.
I think the intel needs a bit more grabbing room. Maybe if you pushed the glass back all the way to make like a walk-in closet space instead of a broom closet. (Something along the lines of this)
Another minor complaint. I think maybe just adding an EXIT sign or an arrow or something on the last screenshot. The first two shots are clear on where the vents turn, but you don't really notice the exit of the vent until you're face to face with it. It's really minor, but it probably wouldn't hurt for first timers playing the map.
And finally:
It looks like people should be able to hide under there, but I can barely tuck myself in at the moment. Maybe pushing the ground in or lowering it a bit so people can hide under there?
Demomen and Soldiers are able to get onto the top of the vents here, and since (the majority of us) only had one way of getting to the bridge, they were just able to spam explosives on the corner whenever they saw something move. Perhaps making it so they can't jump up there? I don't know if it'll be as bad when there's two ways of getting out.
Really minor, but I think the ground in this water area needs to be flattened out. It's bumpy and a bit odd to run on. It's also hard to get out because of this part:
I think just elevating that ground in the water a bit would fix it.
I think the intel needs a bit more grabbing room. Maybe if you pushed the glass back all the way to make like a walk-in closet space instead of a broom closet. (Something along the lines of this)
Another minor complaint. I think maybe just adding an EXIT sign or an arrow or something on the last screenshot. The first two shots are clear on where the vents turn, but you don't really notice the exit of the vent until you're face to face with it. It's really minor, but it probably wouldn't hurt for first timers playing the map.
And finally:
It looks like people should be able to hide under there, but I can barely tuck myself in at the moment. Maybe pushing the ground in or lowering it a bit so people can hide under there?
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[quote="Infusions";p="166739"]
Really minor, but I think the ground in this water area needs to be flattened out. It's bumpy and a bit odd to run on. It's also hard to get out because of this part:
I think just elevating that ground in the water a bit would fix it.
[/quote]That must be what Jesus_Faction was talking about.
Once again, I couldn't ask for finer suggestions! I can get these done today assuming studying for my CPTS exam tomorrow doesn't take too much time.
Oh, and about the pile of barrels. I'm thinking I'm still going to have to leave that to the jumping fellows so that we don't always have a circular flow of people running around the base. I'll leave the shortcut-making to the observant Engineers like Guardian.
Really minor, but I think the ground in this water area needs to be flattened out. It's bumpy and a bit odd to run on. It's also hard to get out because of this part:
I think just elevating that ground in the water a bit would fix it.
[/quote]That must be what Jesus_Faction was talking about.
Once again, I couldn't ask for finer suggestions! I can get these done today assuming studying for my CPTS exam tomorrow doesn't take too much time.
Well, technically, that is the back of the base. But I can make it look more like the back of a base!Itchy wrote:Also, something purely aesthetic, that I think could alleviate another concern I've heard: You might want to make the front of the base LOOK like the front of a base without necessarily adding an entrance over there. Make it all blockaded off or something, with some arrows to the back so people don't get confused. Make the door that you enter through more of a "back door" entrance.
Oh, and about the pile of barrels. I'm thinking I'm still going to have to leave that to the jumping fellows so that we don't always have a circular flow of people running around the base. I'll leave the shortcut-making to the observant Engineers like Guardian.
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