CTF Camping Trip [Final]

[Guardian]

Still for spawning adding a wall and adding a ramp that lets you go over the wall wouldn't hurt...right?

Remember not all servers are the ville and I do want this map to be as good as possible.



As for the indoor area, to say that I'm concerned about how cramped the entire building is would be an understatement.

The #1 reason maps get chopped off on TV2 is because people complain about how certain key areas are too cramped. Turbine is popular due to it's medium total map size that isn't too cramped and 2fort is largely hated because of small cramped hallways (and passing by the spawn twice, thanks for not making that mistake.).

I found running through the map alone that the tables made the first floor area claustrophobic and again the stairs were cramped (I'm not sure your expansion will be enough). The intel room was ok but I still would prefer the intel in the center of the room.

I would suggest removing some of the tables, they look cool but they cause more harm then good and also expanding the staircase still as much as possible.

Still I think I'll have to test the map in action before giving any more complaints. Again I hate to be picking but I ahve to comment on those things.

[Ian_Suffix]

It would hurt; it would make it nigh impossible to return to the respawn room.

I get your point on the claustrophobia. It occurs to me that the table still standing probably isn't necessary, it just makes it harder to get to the stairs.

One more potential change to make things wider would be to remove the unnecessary doorframes between the intelligence room and the area immediately following the plastic tunnels. I'm not sure if there are any more possible changes that wouldn't fundamentally change the cabins.

Thank you for your continued advisory!

[Guardian]

Hmmmm

How about this:

Add a "spawn door" and a wall blocking off that "spawn" area and but also add the I suggested ramp so instead of using the door you can jump out into the action but also add enemy team blocks on the tops of the walls (to prevent the enemy team from rocket jumping up there.

Also I would still like the back wall removed. If your being pinned down in the right side, wouldn't you want to go over by going AROUND the camping house. Extra exits from spawn never hurt and you can current go over this wall by rocket jumping.

[Ian_Suffix]

Although I call it a spawn yard, nobody spawns there, you know. The only spawn-like feature is a regen cabinet which can only be used by its respective team, making it a fine place to fight should enemies get nosy. I have already covered the blocked exit problem with the bathroom route: exit the spawn from the upper door, head to the end of the hall, and jump out the window. It's the same as going around the back of the house, but quicker and less dangerous (the vast majority of enemies cannot get on the second floor).

If people really want to get in the useless area that is the backyard, they must employ the likes of Engineers or explosions. I didn't want to reveal this at first, but...

[spoil]An engineer can build a teleporter exit underneath the fence into the back yard if they are able to sneak through the very dangerous "spawn yard." Once again, the spawn yard is not a spawn room, nor is it the only exit, nor are Engineers very dangerous without turrets. Having a teleport into the back yard, if not discovered, could lead to an excellent foothold into the back vents. This isn't the only Engineering secret, either! But the other one is very difficult to pull off.[/spoil]

[Guardian]

I still say you let us go play in the backyard....

And close off the "spawnyard" in the way that I outlined

You don't even need a doorr just the "no enemy players" blocker and the ramp going over if you feel like coming from above.


Alright just a couple little things then I'm done:


2 doors: I notice there's one door into the cabin but another that seems blocked off. My answer is why, it probably wouldn't do a lot of harm to have 2 doors to prevent turtling.

The table: The inside isn't as cramped as I thought it be but I still you should remove the table in front of the front door to make it easier for attackers to get in when reds or a sentry is sitting there.


[spoil]I also found another secret way into the backyard with an engy that's much easier and sneakier[/spoil]

[Plinko]

Tonight was the first time I got to try this out.

I like some things about the map, but a few things bother me, too.

The water is a death trap since you can't walk out of it. Could we at least get somewhere to step out, even if its not the steps in the center?

You complained that the map is too sniper friendly, but that's because you funnel people through just two places to enter the middlle and can be seen from a few spots with good cover, so snipers can just watch those few areas without worrying much about being snuck up on. Is there a reason the sewer doesn't open both ways? Failing that, I'd aks for another way into the water that cannot be seen from the other base to give people a chance to sneak around more.

Its extremely hard to climb up the ground exiting the sewer, too (only walkable area is to the far right) most maps don't employ much unclimbable slope because it looks like people can climb it, they get halfway up and find they're stuck and have to go back down and find the right way.

[Jesus_Faction]

I think you spawn too far away from your intel room...

I remember last time we tested this map the other team locked down our intel room with sentries and teles.

Maybe a shotcut via the spawn room to get closer to the intel would help.

The water is too hard to get out of still.

[Guardian]

[quote="Jesus_Faction";p="165210"]I think you spawn too far away from your intel room...

I remember last time we tested this map the other team locked down our intel room with sentries and teles.

Maybe a shotcut via the spawn room to get closer to the intel would help.

The water is too hard to get out of still.[/quote]

That's actually one of the things I like about this map. The spawn is not right next to/in front of the intel

[Plinko]

I mght actually agree with Guardian here. Picking up the intel and running into a bunch of freshly respawned defenders is not a good setup. As it is, spawned players can get to either exit much faster than anyone carrying the INT could get to them.

[itchy]

It feels like everything on this map is too cramped. It favors Soldiers and (debatably) Demomen, and very little else. Something needs to change, and I'm not entirely sure what. Maybe remove those walls by the base and replace them with shorter barriers (if you're worried about snipers, roofs do much better than giant walls do)? Maybe turn the river into a shallow creek? Maybe both? Maybe just put some extra land space in between the two bases? I'm not entirely sure but... it feels incredibly claustrophobic. I wouldn't touch Scout on this map.

Also, very minor complaint, you should make the ground lights in the intel room no-clip, since you tend to get hung up on them a bit.

I sent this to a fellow mapper as well, but it applies here just as well:

When designing a map, always make sure to keep in mind the things that each of the classes "like":
Scouts: Flanking routes, moderate height discrepancies, medkits, moderately open spaces
Soldiers: Large height discrepancies, medium-distance combat locations
Pyros: Closed spaces, ambush locations
Demos: Gradual heigh inclines, chokepoints, cover for firing over
Heavies: Short distances between points, and cover when the distances are longer
Engineers: Multiple good positions for both sentries and teleporters, offensive and defensive
Medic: Areas on offense that benefit offensive classes, and places on defense that benefit defensive classes
Sniper: Long straight distances, open spaces
Spies: Hiding locations, ammo packs, wide areas (to avoid bumping into people)

Now, of course not all parts of the map have to benefit all classes equally, but all of the classes should have SOME part of the map that they excel at, and no class should have so many beneficial spots that they just dominate.

The notably lacking classes here are Scouts, Spies, and Snipers - the classes that particularly like more open spaces. I assume you've been designing with the intention of not making Snipers overpowered, but if so, you went overboard. Keep in mind that such moderately open spaces don't overpower any class like excessively open or excessively closed ones do. There really is a happy medium that benefits most classes evenly. Again, look to maps that work very well - look at the middle point of freight, or the middle combat area of turbine. Actually, look at turbine in general - all of the areas in turbine, both the middle and the indoor areas are wider. Only the vents are really cramped.

I'm not trying to be a downer. I realize that you've put a lot of work into this, and making dramatic changes at this point is very difficult. But something's got to change to make this class balanced.

[Plinko]

I would say the map is great for sniping, but conversely its awful for pyros, spies and scouts. Closed spaces are bad for them because while you CAN ambush, you CAN'T dodge, which is critical for effective pyro/scout/spy play, running into a demo, heavy or soldier in a cramped area is a death every time unless you get the drop on someone low on health since every projectile or bullet is going to hit you and you'll die before the flame does it work.

The best spot for pyros is the middle, which is full of water. . .

[Ian_Suffix]

After that playtest yesterday, I'm confident some extravagant changes are in order. Not the least of which: switch the two sides without turning the cabins. In other words, let the backs of the cabins face the river (which must be made shallower, and the banks less steep), and in more abstract terms, make the map less horizontally active: make people travel in a manner that doesn't involve along the river bank. In addition, the fire towers need some corrugated metal applied to it to prevent Snipers from camping the staircase. Also, I do like the idea of an increased number of exits into the river area such that people aren't forced to take either the fire tower route or the fallen-fence route.

This will undoubtedly take a while, but it'll be worth it, I'm sure. This will also involve changing the vent course entirely, as well as changing what was previously the "back yard" into a fully accessible "front yard." Just the way Guardian wants it!

To Guardian: [spoil]Out of curiousity, Guardian, can I hear the other method?[/spoil]

If I can finish this before the 18th, we may have a B4 ready for Total Warz! No, no-- I must finish B4 before Total Warz. We deserve a better beta.

[Guardian]

Sounds good Ian. The main area I'm concerned about is the outside now. Since most of the fighting happens outside, it's gameplay must be balanced for all classes and never frustrating for any team. There isn't as much action indoors as I thought there would be and it isn't too cramped (especially if you get rid of that one table in front of the door).

I'll give you a checklist of things I want to see in the map using areas that turbine excels in. As itchy said, it's a EXTREMELY good map to look at. It's the only ctf to be used in competitive play AT ALL, most liked by members of this forum and in general doesn't statement result in poor gameplay.


Here's a small list of the areas that would make any CTF map more like turbine (in other words better):


1. Relatively small-medium size:

Large maps make everyone confused and disorganized as to where to go, even if they know the map and it becomes hard to bring the intel. So far you have this attribute nailed, it doesn't feel too long or too short to each intel's spawn.

2. Not hard to access intel.

2fort fails at this. A single sentry can make it difficult to cap the intel, 2 can make it nearly impossible. As long as you have those 2 routes into the intel room I think you'll be fine in this attribute.

3. Spawn room in not in every path to intel

Again 2fort fails..... hard and nearly every CTF map except for turbine and yours. Again you have this nailed. WHY EVERY SINGLE MAP MAKER SEEMS TO THINK PUTTING THE SPAWN ROOM DIRECTLY IN FRONT OF/NEXT TO THE INTEL IS BEYOND ME!!!

4. A relatively large area which both teams must fight for control of!

This is by far the most difficult, necessary and beautiful attribute that your map must not only have but perfect (if you want it to be like turbine and not 2fort). Many mapper fails to pull this off properly and I suggest you devote as much as you can to this.

Turbine's gameplay is excellent because the WINNING team is determined by who controlled the big outside area. From this area it can be relatively easy to set up and start pushs to cap the intel over and over again until the losing side pushs them out and they start capping the intel. This push and pull gameplay is what makes turbine so widely loved and your map has the potential to be at the same level.

This mostly will involve balancing the outside area for all classes.

[spoil]O and before I forget

If you jump as an engy while next to the vents you can place a teleporter to the backyard [/spoil]

[Plinko]

Sorry to be so rough, Ian! I look forward to the next round of updates. You've put out a pretty decent map, as you can see everyone here is pretty tought on CTF maps. . .

[Ian_Suffix]

And rightfully so. The smallest lapse in judgment will doom a CTF map.

I should mention that I'm currently working on consolidating the area that spans the river and the roads into one enormous free for all area, rather than compartmentalizing the battlefields into 5 outdoor areas. Unfortunately, this is turning out to be extremely difficult. I've had to scrap nearly all of my displacements, the sewer routes are now merely decoration (inaccessible), I've had to close the bathroom windows (can't have people jumping into the fray without notice), and I'm not sure where or even if I will place the fire towers. But at this rate, I should have it done before next weekend.