The Near Future...

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Re: The Near Future...

Post by Boss Llama » Sat Jul 14, 2012 9:21 am

Remember to post your thoughts, even if you they ended up not panning out when you tried them. By pooling info, people can avoid repeating the same errors, and a solution can be found more quickly, and with less frustration :-)
MrBlah wrote:As much as I have read into ciphers and cryptography in the past couple weeks, I am still lost and am clearly missing some valuable tools to solving these.
Patience is generally going to be the biggest tool. Remembering that a negative result is almost as valuable as a positive result is important.

If your instinct says that something is a given trick, at least give that trick a try before dismissing it. There have been at least two ciphers here where the correct solution was identified, but wasn't tried until later.

Even without being able to read a thing, you can tell certain aspects about a cipher which can be useful. The number of symbols being used is the first clue.
  • If there are only a couple dozen symbols (say 20-40) you're probably looking at an alphabetic writing system, similar to English. From a cipher perspective, this means you're probably looking at one symbol = one letter type substitutions, with maybe some extra symbols thrown in (puncuation, spaces, dipthongs, or doublings). That doesn't mean it's always represents the same letter every time, but the cipher symbol itself is only one letter.
  • If there are several dozen up to maybe a bit over 100 symbols, you may be looking at a syllabic writing system, or (in English) each normal letter is represented by many values. Syllabic writing is where each syllable, or more frequently digraph (two letters together) gets its own symbol. The word "Individual" would be written with 5-7 characters, either In-di-vi-du-al or I-ne-di-vi-du-a-le (in some systems, like Mycenean Greek, every syllable is either pure vowel, or consonant-vowel - never pure consonant or vowel-consonant). In a cipher context, it could go two ways. I might be the above where the cipher symbol represents a digraph or syllable, or it could also mean that multiple cipher symbols mean the same thing. Perhaps E, being the most common letter in English at around 13%, is represented by 13 different symbols out of 100.
  • If the writing system is truly vast, many hundreds to several thousand symbols, you could be looking at ideographic writing. Chinese is a ready example of this, where words and ideas are represented by pictographic symbols. You don't need many symbols to write a word (often just 1 symbol), but you need a vast quantity of different symbols to be able to write anything worthwhile. From a cipher perspective, this many symbols is probably indicative of a language other than English, or if it is English, you'll need huge quantities of message text to begin the process of pattern identification and such.
Though frequency analysis isn't a perfect tool for actually finding the key to a cipher, it is an excellent tool for narrowing down the range of cipher types being used. If you analyze symbol use and get a normal curve, there's a bloody good chance you're dealing with a simple substitution, even if you have somewhat more or somewhat fewer symbols. If you have a curve that's either pretty darn flat, or which at least too smooth of an angle, you're probably looking at a polyalphabetic cipher - something like a Vigenère cipher.

Here, for example, is the frequency distribution of the Gettysburg Address using a simple (monoalphabetic) substition, a 4 alphabet system, and a 13 alphabet system:
VIEW CONTENT:
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Once you establish what general kind of writing/encryption system it probably is by identifying the number of characters being used, and the distribution of their use, it's time to start testing possible matches to see if you can get any hits. Looks for repeating patterns in the text. Getting two letters next to each other a couple times here or there might be coincidence, but getting strings of three or four letters repeating themselves three or four times is not a coincidence - it's an opening. If the same symbols is regularly or always followed by the same other symbol, it's an opening. Above all, share what you've figured out with others, so everybody can work together.
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Re: The Near Future...

Post by Boss Llama » Sun Jul 15, 2012 12:36 am

21469 57174 99813 45712 03286 39572 14457 10610 21457 01057
96545 71216 51495 71007 57214 45710 63816 57585 15959 16456
57625 76957 83574 54126 26313 57261 74572 05718 45785 71381
74757 14474 57825 72144 57506 16164 56575 15811 82495 78311
57588 21214 49578 74571 84631 35774 16489 41157 63572 10571
76341 27810 25791 73125 78311 57021 44795 65790 17426 17495
76257 69571 48711 57205 71141 26114 57531 46121 45713 81745
72057 45043 57581 68555 65762 57178 19495 71745 75369 14576
57120 51161 15758 16855 57214 41757 81616 57825 70312 45657
53621 45721 44579 24817 57951 17174 75798 16457 30535 71306
31357 03576 25753 61616 57184 57450 43571 48711 47572 05711
41261 14575 31482 57138 17495 72057 58168 55578 31157 14053
57175 11214 57261 74572 05711 41161 28245 72057 48121 45703
45657 21447 45714 85045 71844 35790 17457 58742 25557 13001
15711 48169 57816 74811 55578 31157 17074 57114 81695 78745
73057 11051 18257 12017 63135 75158 57635 72144 57348 75710
51251 74578 95702 14475 71381 74957 87457 17871 94115 71105
33571 00757 58517 12148 94565 71551 92571 84128 51945 72144
74578 74578 57160 25701 05734 53571 05135 71381 74957 11049
57302 57174 83575 34579 14051 16115 73413 16412 25721 44571
21689 96125 70161 15703 49572 14051 13145 65717 07457 13817
49572 05758 16855 57155 19257 17483 95717 07457 13817 49572
05716 05045 65721 44573 48757 10512 51745 71401 61195 71707
45721 48357 13817 45798 16495 72005 65703 45717 07457 12658
14475 71216 51457 81024 75721 46957 83115 72144 35721 44571
06381 65758 51595 91645 75361 61657 95861 61657 62957 94127
42956 57816 81881 78579 65457 10650 45754 85064 75794 50435
71551 61616 68711 56
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Re: The Near Future...

Post by CoyoteCreed » Sun Jul 15, 2012 3:43 am

BOOM. SOLVED IT.
Alizée Fan wrote:21469 57174 99813 45712 03286 39572 14457 10610 21457 01057
96545 71216 51495 71007 57214 45710 63816 57585 15959 16456
57625 76957 83574 54126 26313 57261 74572 05718 45785 71381
74757 14474 57825 72144 57506 16164 56575 15811 82495 78311
57588 21214 49578 74571 84631 35774 16489 41157 63572 10571
76341 27810 25791 73125 78311 57021 44795 65790 17426 17495
76257 69571 48711 57205 71141 26114 57531 46121 45713 81745
72057 45043 57581 68555 65762 57178 19495 71745 75369 14576
57120 51161 15758 16855 57214 41757 81616 57825 70312 45657
53621 45721 44579 24817 57951 17174 75798 16457 30535 71306
31357 03576 25753 61616 57184 57450 43571 48711 47572 05711
41261 14575 31482 57138 17495 72057 58168 55578 31157 14053
57175 11214 57261 74572 05711 41161 28245 72057 48121 45703
45657 21447 45714 85045 71844 35790 17457 58742 25557 13001
15711 48169 57816 74811 55578 31157 17074 57114 81695 78745
73057 11051 18257 12017 63135 75158 57635 72144 57348 75710
51251 74578 95702 14475 71381 74957 87457 17871 94115 71105
33571 00757 58517 12148 94565 71551 92571 84128 51945 72144
74578 74578 57160 25701 05734 53571 05135 71381 74957 11049
57302 57174 83575 34579 14051 16115 73413 16412 25721 44571
21689 96125 70161 15703 49572 14051 13145 65717 07457 13817
49572 05758 16855 57155 19257 17483 95717 07457 13817 49572
05716 05045 65721 44573 48757 10512 51745 71401 61195 71707
45721 48357 13817 45798 16495 72005 65703 45717 07457 12658
14475 71216 51457 81024 75721 46957 83115 72144 35721 44571
06381 65758 51595 91645 75361 61657 95861 61657 62957 94127
42956 57816 81881 78579 65457 10650 45754 85064 75794 50435
71551 61616 68711 56
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Re: The Near Future...

Post by Flaming Cheese Wheel » Sun Jul 15, 2012 7:54 am

I was thinking whether it would be easy to troll people at this point by putting up a puzzle that's actually the fourth part of the Kryptos sculpture or the third Beale cipher. :)
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Re: The Near Future...

Post by OldMan » Sun Jul 15, 2012 8:21 am

Flaming Cheese Wheel wrote:I was thinking whether it would be easy to troll people at this point by putting up a puzzle that's actually the fourth part of the Kryptos sculpture or the third Beale cipher. :)
I was thinking the exact same thing, but putting up a totally random string of nonsense. Just to see if Coyote's head would actually explode...

Then I thought the better of it because this forum is Serious Business!

I have to say, Alizee and Coyote, you guys are on a totally different level. I enjoy a good puzzle, crossword, cryptogram, logic, but it's obvious to me that I'm just playing around with a few words.

It's been very entertaining/educational to read these posts and I now feel I can re-read all my WWII history books and understand better the crazy codes and spy stuff! Thanks guys!
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Re: The Near Future...

Post by Boss Llama » Sun Jul 15, 2012 9:49 am

CoyoteCreed wrote:BOOM. SOLVED IT.
VIEW CONTENT:
Alizée Fan wrote:21469 57174 99813 45712 03286 39572 14457 10610 21457 01057
96545 71216 51495 71007 57214 45710 63816 57585 15959 16456
57625 76957 83574 54126 26313 57261 74572 05718 45785 71381
74757 14474 57825 72144 57506 16164 56575 15811 82495 78311
57588 21214 49578 74571 84631 35774 16489 41157 63572 10571
76341 27810 25791 73125 78311 57021 44795 65790 17426 17495
76257 69571 48711 57205 71141 26114 57531 46121 45713 81745
72057 45043 57581 68555 65762 57178 19495 71745 75369 14576
57120 51161 15758 16855 57214 41757 81616 57825 70312 45657
53621 45721 44579 24817 57951 17174 75798 16457 30535 71306
31357 03576 25753 61616 57184 57450 43571 48711 47572 05711
41261 14575 31482 57138 17495 72057 58168 55578 31157 14053
57175 11214 57261 74572 05711 41161 28245 72057 48121 45703
45657 21447 45714 85045 71844 35790 17457 58742 25557 13001
15711 48169 57816 74811 55578 31157 17074 57114 81695 78745
73057 11051 18257 12017 63135 75158 57635 72144 57348 75710
51251 74578 95702 14475 71381 74957 87457 17871 94115 71105
33571 00757 58517 12148 94565 71551 92571 84128 51945 72144
74578 74578 57160 25701 05734 53571 05135 71381 74957 11049
57302 57174 83575 34579 14051 16115 73413 16412 25721 44571
21689 96125 70161 15703 49572 14051 13145 65717 07457 13817
49572 05758 16855 57155 19257 17483 95717 07457 13817 49572
05716 05045 65721 44573 48757 10512 51745 71401 61195 71707
45721 48357 13817 45798 16495 72005 65703 45717 07457 12658
14475 71216 51457 81024 75721 46957 83115 72144 35721 44571
06381 65758 51595 91645 75361 61657 95861 61657 62957 94127
42956 57816 81881 78579 65457 10650 45754 85064 75794 50435
71551 61616 68711 56
Hahahahahaha, nice :-P It's a message even I didn't know was there, but which we all know must be true! :-P :-P :-P

Flaming Cheese Wheel wrote:I was thinking whether it would be easy to troll people at this point by putting up a puzzle that's actually the fourth part of the Kryptos sculpture or the third Beale cipher. :)
...and watch somebody here solve them without realizing what they are, haha. That would crack me the heck up.

For those not in the know, Kryptos is a statue containing 4 ciphers, which is located at the CIA HQ in Langley, VA. The statue was put up in 1990, and three of the four ciphers have been solved by groups from the NSA, as well as some private individuals. The fourth is not yet known to have been cracked. The Beale cipher on the other hand is an old cipher supposedly pointing the way to significant buried wealth, published in pamphlet form in 1885. One of the ciphers was published with a solution (the publisher claiming he could get no further and wanted at least somebody to find the stuff), but the others have been unbroken for more than 120 years. There is significant reason to believe they are hoaxes, or at the very least, are not what they are claimed to be.
OldMan wrote: I have to say, Alizee and Coyote, you guys are on a totally different level. I enjoy a good puzzle, crossword, cryptogram, logic, but it's obvious to me that I'm just playing around with a few words.

It's been very entertaining/educational to read these posts and I now feel I can re-read all my WWII history books and understand better the crazy codes and spy stuff! Thanks guys!
It's just having a bit of fun with words! Cryptography's first defense is making people think they can't break it. I'm using all hand encryption system here, designed for most part for use on the battlefield by people under stress. I'm confidant that 15 minutes is all it would take to explain any given system seen here well enough that any Villun could both use it without difficulty, and potentially decrypt things written with it. I'm glad the thread is entertaining though! WWII history books are how I originally got in to this stuff - check out Battle of Wits by Stephen Budiansky, and Black May by Michael Gannon, if you haven't already (the first focuses on codebreaking, the latter on the u-boat war).
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Re: The Near Future...

Post by OldMan » Sun Jul 15, 2012 10:43 am

Black May by Michael Gannon is exactly the book I am reading right now! That's creepy...
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Re: The Near Future...

Post by Boss Llama » Sun Jul 15, 2012 11:02 am

See? Proves you have good taste :-)

That or we're just both equally defective, but I prefer the former.
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Re: The Near Future...

Post by CoyoteCreed » Mon Jul 16, 2012 2:30 am

The usual:

Code: Select all

5 : 264
1 : 252
7 : 244
4 : 151
6 : 92
8 : 86
2 : 84
0 : 71
3 : 68
9 : 55

57 => 175
71 => 69
45 => 62
14 => 47
74 => 40
16 => 39
17 => 36
11 => 34
75 => 34
81 => 32
21 => 30
95 => 30
72 => 28
05 => 25
12 => 25
61 => 24
65 => 24
78 => 23
51 => 22
15 => 21
35 => 20

571 => 63
457 => 50
572 => 28
214 => 25
957 => 24
745 => 23
575 => 20
357 => 20
174 => 20
578 => 19
657 => 18
144 => 17
257 => 16
721 => 16
115 => 14
717 => 14
495 => 13
816 => 13
579 => 13
757 => 13
057 => 13
157 => 12
711 => 11
565 => 11
161 => 11

7457 => 20
4571 => 18
5721 => 16
2144 => 15
7214 => 15
4957 => 13
5717 => 13
1157 => 12
5657 => 11
5720 => 10
5713 => 10

57214 => 15
72144 => 12
72057 => 9
57205 => 9
71381 => 8
38174 => 8
74571 => 8
13817 => 8
57138 => 8
21445 => 8
17457 => 8
14457 => 8
45657 => 7
17495 => 6
74957 => 6

572144 => 12
572057 => 9
138174 => 8
571381 => 8
713817 => 8
214457 => 8
721445 => 8
174957 => 6
571707 => 5
717074 => 5
170745 => 5
707457 => 5
817495 => 5
578311 => 5
720571 => 5
783115 => 5
831157 => 5
381749 => 5
This is ignoring the spaces and newlines. Obviously, it's likely the groupings of five are simply for convenience.
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Re: The Near Future...

Post by Vulcan » Mon Jul 16, 2012 2:59 am

I'll point out one thing, the number of number characters in the coded message is 1367, a prime.

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Re: The Near Future...

Post by CoyoteCreed » Mon Jul 16, 2012 5:55 am

Vulcan wrote:I'll point out one thing, the number of number characters in the coded message is 1367, a prime.
So, either single characters or groups of irregular size.

More:

Code: Select all

11 : 34
22 : 2
33 : 1
44 : 18
55 : 15
66 : 1
77 : 1
88 : 2
99 : 2
00 : 4

555 : 6
All other triples: 0
Too tired for explanation right now, but the ciphers I'm looking at are Monome-Dinome, Morbit, and Pollux. I'm hoping it's not a Tridigital.
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Re: The Near Future...

Post by Boss Llama » Tue Jul 17, 2012 9:42 pm

CoyoteCreed wrote:Bring your big guns, Ali. I am far from afraid.
Still your move. :wink:

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VIEW CONTENT:
Also, I chatted with my homeboy Tom Hanks, and got him to have his people write a brief article that might be of interest: Check it out.
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Re: The Near Future...

Post by CoyoteCreed » Wed Jul 18, 2012 4:09 pm

I'm not sure how much time I have to work on this this week, as my free time is being eaten up training for the Berkeley Mystery Hunt on Saturday, and then this global online escape game on Tuesday, not to mention I've started playing Machinarium. So yes, Alizee, I'm cheating on you with other puzzles.

That said, I know this latest cipher is a straddling checkerboard.
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Re: The Near Future...

Post by Vulcan » Wed Jul 18, 2012 5:23 pm

CoyoteCreed wrote: More:

Code: Select all

11 : 34
22 : 2
33 : 1
44 : 18
55 : 15
66 : 1
77 : 1
88 : 2
99 : 2
00 : 4

555 : 6
All other triples: 0
Too tired for explanation right now, but the ciphers I'm looking at are Monome-Dinome, Morbit, and Pollux. I'm hoping it's not a Tridigital.
I don't think its a Tridigital since by your chart, there's an occurrence of every double digit, which, unless my understanding is wrong, wouldn't happen with Tridigital since one number would only be used for word breaks.

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Re: The Near Future...

Post by CoyoteCreed » Wed Jul 18, 2012 6:43 pm

Okay, fine, I lied, Alizee.

"This message contains the fifth of six clues for the final puzzle. It is an exciting time to be a gamer here at The Ville. Updates and patches are being released in TF Minecraft SMNC and others. Sometimes it is hard to decide which game to even play. It makes me wish I could play them all at once. With the Steam Summer Sale now going on it will be even harder to decide what games to play and how much time to dedicate to each one. There have been some pretty good deals already and more deals are no doubt coming up in the near future as other games are marked down for purchase. Just because there are a lot of new fun games does not mean we should neglect the classic old ones though. More games to play just means more games to love. The near future holds more than game sales too. One more cipher clue after this and then the final puzzle will spill its secrets. ALABAMA SIX FIVE XAVIER SEVEN JUILLIARD."

So, it was a straddling checkerboard with the following key:

Code: Select all

  8 2 1 0 3 4 5 9 6 7
  A T   O N E   S I R
1 B C D F G H J K L M
5 P Q U V W X Y Z . _
I can explain how I figured it out in a later post, but I only realized Alizee's checkerboard image was a hint after I had figured out what kind of cipher it was.
Last edited by CoyoteCreed on Wed Jul 18, 2012 8:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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