TV7 Refresh Take Two

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Re: TV7 Refresh Take Two

Post by Flyte » Tue Oct 14, 2014 1:33 am

ADevilishPotato wrote:
black_and_blue wrote:I'd like to keep Foundry - of the 5cp maps on the server now, it's probably the least damaging to the server population.

I also wouldn't add cp_5gorge. I was damaging to the population even when we had quickplay.

Other than that, it looks reasonable to me.
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Re: TV7 Refresh Take Two

Post by belak » Tue Oct 14, 2014 1:54 am

SchruteFarms wrote:Something something KOTH can't be added on to that server for some reason.
Um, any reason why? I haven't heard that before.

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Re: TV7 Refresh Take Two

Post by The_Reaper » Tue Oct 14, 2014 2:55 am

The switch looks reasonable to me. One suggestion on Turbine is to check on the version. The latest one I've seen has added flanking routes that make the central room more dynamic and forward Engie bases worse.
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Re: TV7 Refresh Take Two

Post by Boss Llama » Tue Oct 14, 2014 5:57 am

The_Reaper wrote:The switch looks reasonable to me. One suggestion on Turbine is to check on the version. The latest one I've seen has added flanking routes that make the central room more dynamic and forward Engie bases worse.
That is a custom modified version. TV7 only runs stock maps, so the stock one is the only one that would be a potential candidate for its purposes.
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Re: TV7 Refresh Take Two

Post by prang » Tue Oct 14, 2014 11:32 am

Alizée Fan wrote:
The_Reaper wrote:The switch looks reasonable to me. One suggestion on Turbine is to check on the version. The latest one I've seen has added flanking routes that make the central room more dynamic and forward Engie bases worse.
That is a custom modified version. TV7 only runs stock maps, so the stock one is the only one that would be a potential candidate for its purposes.

We should change this rule now that TV7 is ineligible for quick play. I have suggested ctf_turbine_pro several times over the past year because it is a more interesting variant than the default turtle-fest.

I think TV7 relies on retaining regulars through map changes more now than it did with Valve shuffling in noobs for us to shoot. Every time 3 or 4 regulars bail before the next map comes up we are in danger of having to re-seed.

For the people who play TV7 often, having undeniably better versions of some of the maps would give them something to look forward to on map changes. ctf_turbine_pro is more fun for more of the classes, it promotes offense and teamwork, and it offers more than just a big boxy room for everyone to fight in.

I have fun on ctf_turbine.... sometimes. The things that make it fun are in _pro and most of the things that make it frustrating have been addressed. I would really like to see this map added and while we had quick play running it wasn't an option. Now it can be.
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Re: TV7 Refresh Take Two

Post by c4ridw3n » Tue Oct 14, 2014 10:09 pm

Maybe the rotation should be voted on every couple months for map changes. Seems like people are eager to see it be freshened up more frequently. Perhaps a core of tried and true with a few map slots that get voted every month or two.
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Re: TV7 Refresh Take Two

Post by belak » Wed Oct 15, 2014 12:14 am

c4ridw3n wrote:Maybe the rotation should be voted on every couple months for map changes. Seems like people are eager to see it be freshened up more frequently. Perhaps a core of tried and true with a few map slots that get voted every month or two.
Yes please. Anything to get a bit more rotation in the rotation server.

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Re: TV7 Refresh Take Two

Post by Emily Brontësaurus » Wed Oct 15, 2014 1:20 am

I'm not a huge fan of CTF maps, but of them, I vastly prefer Sawmill to DoubleCross. When I'm on and DoubleCross comes on it always seems like we don't get many people or people are trying to rush through it to nextmap.
I'd LOVE to see Harvest, even just for Fall events (Halloween through Thanksgiving or something). Viaduct is a fun KOTH map too.
In A/D maps I'm a big fan of MountainLab too but it doesn't get a lot of play.. but I would prefer it to Gorge or Gravelpit. But what do I know.. I also like Steel. :)
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Re: TV7 Refresh Take Two

Post by belak » Wed Oct 15, 2014 1:48 am

cloudbank wrote:I'm not a huge fan of CTF maps, but of them, I vastly prefer Sawmill to DoubleCross. When I'm on and DoubleCross comes on it always seems like we don't get many people or people are trying to rush through it to nextmap.
I'd LOVE to see Harvest, even just for Fall events (Halloween through Thanksgiving or something). Viaduct is a fun KOTH map too.
In A/D maps I'm a big fan of MountainLab too but it doesn't get a lot of play.. but I would prefer it to Gorge or Gravelpit. But what do I know.. I also like Steel. :)
Most of the times I've seen doublecross come up so far (it's only been a few weeks) the server was emptying before it came up. I'd like to give it a bit more of a chance before axing it though. Harvest does seem to be getting a bit of love lately. I know we throw up a server with whichever Halloween map comes out each year, so I assume something will be up, though I don't know about the old maps.

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Re: TV7 Refresh Take Two

Post by Plinko » Wed Oct 15, 2014 8:12 am

CTF_sawmill sits with junction and watchtower just underneath the bottom of the barrel as the absolute worst official TF2 maps - it would kill the server as badly as hydro.
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Re: TV7 Refresh Take Two

Post by Boss Llama » Wed Oct 15, 2014 9:04 am

TV7 has been studied perhaps more than any of our other servers. The folks running this place have watched it extensively for years, keeping track of what helps or harms its population numbers: If I recall correctly what's been posted by them in the past, the following things have generally proven bad for the server:

Custom maps - Some people always leave on a map change, but add a download to the mix and you get mass exodus.
KOTH maps - KOTH can succeed by itself, but the folks who like it seem to be different from those who like other map types.
Generally unpopular maps - Regardless of map quality, maps like Hydro, Sawmill, Gorge, and Egypt murder server numbers.

Now, very little of this tends to apply to community participating Villuns - the folks here on the forums - but this group is a minority on the servers compared to our general visitors and non-community regs. The above type of maps basically result in having to re-seed on map change, and then re-seed again when it changes off. There's nothing wrong with any of those types of maps, but from what we've been told here before, they won't sustain the server in the wild.

Regarding voting on the forums: this is something that was done for quite a while - every month for over a year there was a vote to rotate a map, and it was implemented on the server. In the end, this was suspended because it just wasn't working. The map changes that were occurring weren't helping - the newly voted maps often ended up having a negative effect, as they were popularly selected by the very small number of folks who were from the forums here, and didn't take the feelings of the general playing population in to account. I believe it was decided that if we had a certain set of maps that consistently performed the best, we ought to stick with it.

Again, this all is my recollection of what was explained based on extensive research. I don't have a problem with an occasional alteration if it performs well on the server, but we have to remember that we on the forums represent a truly small proportion of the playing hours on the servers, and have proven to have somewhat more cosmopolitan TF2 tastes than the general population.
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Re: TV7 Refresh Take Two

Post by The Domer » Wed Oct 15, 2014 10:08 am

cloudbank wrote:I also like Steel. :)
Steel is terrific!

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Re: TV7 Refresh Take Two

Post by c4ridw3n » Wed Oct 15, 2014 10:10 am

In response to the above Alizee, why not control the maps voted on to be preselected maps by the ville council.
This way people feel that the server is getting a refresh and the council is pleased with the selection.
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Re: TV7 Refresh Take Two

Post by Rumps » Wed Oct 15, 2014 1:58 pm

I am afraid over-analysis has made a "refresh" near impossible. The perfect map selection doesn't exist. Everyone of us in this thread has a passionate response to why "map A" is good or how "map B" kills the server. I think many of us tv7 regs just want more of a frequent change in rotation. Yes double cross hasnt been super-full lately, but some like it some don't. We keep it on for a while and then maybe sample turbine or steel or whatever. I'd rather have the council roll the dice, pick four new maps to change on a quarterly basis.

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Re: TV7 Refresh Take Two

Post by LonelyTentacle » Wed Oct 15, 2014 3:10 pm

rumplenose wrote:I am afraid over-analysis has made a "refresh" near impossible. The perfect map selection doesn't exist. Everyone of us in this thread has a passionate response to why "map A" is good or how "map B" kills the server. I think many of us tv7 regs just want more of a frequent change in rotation. Yes double cross hasnt been super-full lately, but some like it some don't. We keep it on for a while and then maybe sample turbine or steel or whatever. I'd rather have the council roll the dice, pick four new maps to change on a quarterly basis.
I agree. Has Doublecross filled the server and made it the most happy place on Earth? Nope. Did the map it replaced, snakewater, do that? Heck no. Its important to keep in mind that unless the server becomes a 24/7 achievement_idle server or renames itself to Official Valve Server, TV7 will always be a bit of a roller coaster no matter the maps that are placed on it. It has internal competition from TV6 (which has a lot of empty moments of its own), TV5, and the occasional warpath/custom map night. So with other servers at times leeching the regulars and other regulars playing less and less TF2...there will be dry spells. It isn't a coincidence that when TV6 has lag/crashing issues, that TV7 becomes full for hours.

Another thing that hurts TV7 is the overly generous class limits and general team stacking. The 3-0 roflstomps generally discourage people from staying and lead to lots of rage quits. One team unfortunately tends to get the best puggers and when you look at the losing side's class layout it'll always have 3 full snipers along with multiple scouts/spies. A class limit of 2 spies/snipers would help....because....well.... 3 just never made sense in any scenario.

The desire to update a fresh rotation of maps isn't just about keeping butts on the server though. Its about breaking from the mundane for those who frequent the server. The rotation has been the same for over a year with the exception of a minor change. It can get boring for many who've played their routinely over the year. Yeah the community here might be a small % of those who come to TV7.....but they are the percent that always comes back. They are the percent that pays to support theville. They are the percent who'll spend hours trying to seed and get people to join. They'll be the ones sending out invites to get other regulars and friends to join the server. They'll be the ones on the server whether the map is dustbowl, granary, or snakewater. They are the most sustainable types who will be there cheering on the ville legacy and servers regardless of the circumstance. Randoms might pop on for a bit and leave....whether they don't like the map or because their team is being pounded. They come and they go, and not much will keep em through long stretches. So new maps might not make the server population explode, but the simple coat of fresh paint goes a long way to keeping happy those who invest their time, $$, and love for theville to keep the servers going with life in them.
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