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Re: Sad assessment of recent pyro nerf

Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 1:41 pm
by trilobite
Thanks for the feedback.

Regardless of everyone’s opinion about the propriety of melee, once the axtinguisher was introduced, it quickly became the de facto weapon of choice for pyros – who at the time were (and now once again ARE) weak and unpopular. The axtinguisher invited more players to try pyro because it gave them a better chance for survival, and a bit of glory, during close encounters. Same with the afterburner. To ignore these powerful tools was foolhardy. I really didn’t start playing pyro much until the afterburner was introduced. The axtinguisher, afterburner and airblast were given to the pyro way back in 2008. That’s six years ago.

My trilobite Steam profile indicates I have accumulated over 874 hrs. as pyro. I think it is actually much more than that. Add to that at least 200 hrs. of pyro on my alternate steam account. Nearly all of this experience includes use of full-power axtinguisher. All of this experience is now rendered basically irrelevant, as the tools upon which this experience was based are now obsolete.

Yes, I could switch to shotgun, but that would mean giving up my scorch shot – and there is no point whatsoever to even be on the map if I can’t light people on fire from a distance. So forget the shotgun. No fun. Besides the scorch shot is too useful at eliminating enemy stickies from afar.

So, thanks again to everyone who replied. I appreciate your comments. I suppose there are other pyro mains like Aliezee and me who are feeling a bit disenfranchised by this latest Valve nerf. I wanted to give voice to my frustration and maybe give other pyros a chance to chime in.


Re: Sad assessment of recent pyro nerf

Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 2:13 pm
by NerevarineKing
I can totally understand why people like the flare gun or scorch shot, but I personally love my shotgun too much.

Re: Sad assessment of recent pyro nerf

Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 2:32 pm
by Soltan
I gave up on playing pyro when they nerfed the backburner way back (it used to give you a health bonus and had a more generous hit box for back burning). Believe it or not it was my original main class (90 hrs vs 45 at medic at the time).

Re: Sad assessment of recent pyro nerf

Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 5:06 pm
by Bronze Fox
Soltan wrote:I gave up on playing pyro when they nerfed the backburner way back (it used to give you a health bonus and had a more generous hit box for back burning). Believe it or not it was my original main class (90 hrs vs 45 at medic at the time).
Way back in 2008. Then it had a damage bonus (20%, 15%, then 10%) for a while and they removed that.

Re: Sad assessment of recent pyro nerf

Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 10:03 pm
by Jonathin
I use the Phlog almost religiously. I love that wonderful gun.

Re: Sad assessment of recent pyro nerf

Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 4:33 am
by Zork Nemesis
Jonathin wrote:I use the Phlog almost religiously. I love that wonderful gun.
I've started to use it a lot more since I got a Strangifier for it a week ago. I've already racked up over 1000 kills with it on Valve pubs. In such a short span I've dealt nearly 200K damage and a little over 400 of those kills were critical kills (Strange parts for the win)

As for the topic of the axe itself. I'm personally happy about the change. I may be a little biased as I've very rarely used the Axetinguisher, post Degreaser (I did use it a whole lot at first, but then learned how much I used to suck at Pyro in general). I've been a perpetual victim of it and have always hated just how cheap it felt to be killed by one. It's a very depressing moment to be rendered pretty much helpless while the person who put you in the air gets a chance to line up a free shot for so much damage. This alone was why I was ecstatic when they added Afterburn protection to the Chargin' Targe.

It's not like the tactic has been removed though. While the Axetinguisher might not be a kill anymore, you can still do pretty much the exact same thing with the Flare Gun or Reserve Shooter. Hell I think the Reserve Shooter does comparable damage if you're right in the guy's face and he doesn't even have to be burning for it to work.

Re: Sad assessment of recent pyro nerf

Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 11:34 pm
by prang
Crit weapons are dumb. :twisted:

Re: Sad assessment of recent pyro nerf

Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 1:04 pm
by CknSalad
Phlog is quite good and annoying to deal with. Degreaser and reserve shooter combination is pretty annoying/devastating as well.

Re: Sad assessment of recent pyro nerf

Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2014 11:53 pm
by Professor_Frink
I've had good luck with the backburner.... :D

Re: Sad assessment of recent pyro nerf

Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2014 10:13 pm
by Guardian
While I've long since stop playing pyro (hell tf2 in general) I'm sad to hear my favorite weapon with the pyro was brought down from it's glory. Axetiquisher quicks were awesome to pull off especially against large targets like heavies but I guess it was just too strong especially compared to other pyro melee weapons especially the vanilla axe, honest who'd actually specialize in that :P

Re: Sad assessment of recent pyro nerf

Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 12:38 am
by v3xin87
Hi Trilo! Bit late to this, but wanted to give my 2 cents as I've always been a big pyro fan. Apologies if any other recent updates have changed any of the pyro weapons.
trilobite wrote: I have been reduced to some sucky W+M1 pyro. Forget about melee. You’re gonna die. Just keep the flame on like any 13-year-old-first-timer-free-to-play newb and you’ll be OK. Well, I’m not OK with that. I’m about to go up to my room and bite my pillow.

Pyro used to require sophisticated coordination and agility, tactics and execution. Even with the full-powered axtinguisher, we pyros die a lot. Still, good pyroing used to earn some measure of respect. Now, it’s relegated to the back of the pack checking for spies, reflecting a few rockets, airblasting ubers (and dying), and maybe homewrecking sappers). The best way for me to play pyro is anathema – W+M1. I am now highly conflicted about it.
The thing is trilo, I don't think the axe nerf really compromises the sort of qualities you mentioned. The only difference being in how you achieve your kills. The default before was the puff and sting, but by no means was that the only means of killing someone. As has been stated, there are flare shots (my personal favorite), shotgun (also great), reserve shooter (still a bit underrated imo), and, of course, flames. While I can understand why someone would detest using flame damage to kill someone, I don't really see why. I think to say so is akin to someone saying Heavies are cheap (all they do is hold m1) or playing spy is easy (they kill in one hit!), while ignoring the reality of aim tracking and the difficulty with sneaking up on the enemies. The reality for the pyro (and really this has almost always been the case) is that players will get most of their kills sneaking up on people, only now it will be with a flamethrower/secondary and not an axe.

My personal suggestions: if you want to top score on Dustbowl and get a bunch of kills, go phlog pyro + scorch shot + powerjack. Use the scorch shot to accumulate oomph and use the power jack to get to places quicker to ambush people (I loove jumping on the snipers nest on stage 1 point 2 and oomphing my way around tunnel as the opposition never expects it). You're a longtime regular so I'm sure you'll get some medic loving. RED + tight chokes on stage 3 + phlog pyro + uber medic = fun times. Trust me, I (and probably some other ppl here) can personally vouch for this combination.

If you want the more balanced combo I'd go backburner/power jack/whatever secondary. I personally feel that the 50 ammo requirement for airblasting isn't that big a deal on Dustbowl considering there is ammo everywhere, but feel free to exchange that with the stock if you're more liberal with your ABs. Powerjack allows you to gtfo which is very important as you're going to have to adjust your mentality to trust afterburn to kill enemies. TBH I've always thought of scorch shot as a very support based weapon as it destroys stickies and is the best secondary when it comes to find spies. Which is cool, but it means you're seriously handicapping yourself from a damage output perspective. Which isn't bad at all, it just requires a bit more of a cautious approach. There are a lot of fun combinations out there trilo! Just give it some time.

Phew. Sorry to be long winded but it feels sooo good to talk TF2. I've sworn off video games for the forseeable future so I've felt quite deprived as of late.

Re: Sad assessment of recent pyro nerf

Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2014 9:35 pm
by trilobite
I want to acknowledge other commenters in this thread. Thank you Guardian, Professor Frink (recently of Mordor), CknSalad, Prang, Zork, Jonathin, Bronze Fox, Soltan, NerevarineKing. Interesting comments. I never would have guessed that about you, Soltan.

In this reply, I am going to respond more specifically to V3xin.

Well, V3xin, what a thoughtful and thorough post. Thank you so much for taking the time to respond to my topic. I’ll have to think about your suggestions. Good ones, they are.

In all my experience in TF2, I have always played pyro as an independent operator – not consorting with medics --- finding my own health and going just about anywhere I wanted. I could do this with a fair amount of confidence because I could airblast overpowering close encounters, or pummel rogue heavies with one or two whacks. A very comfortable and fun play style that got me killed a lot, but always delivered packets of joy and glory. You could say, I enjoyed the rut I was in.

I know lots of people will claim, “Pyro is a support class, you idiot! Stop doing that independent stuff.” To that I say, “Go soak yer head.” There is no rule that says HOW any player MUST play a class. I like the idea of playing in such a way as to maximize the amount of derived joy. And for me, that means playing a lot of independent action. Whatevs…

Comes the axtinguisher nerf and my tried-and-true combo don’t work no more. I tried a few variations and… yea I do a little better and survive ok, but that sense of gratification, and joy just isn’t there anymore. Maybe it’s nostalgia for the old that is keeping me from finding fun in the new. But pyro has become boring.

For me, pyro has never been about racking up kills. It has always been about humiliating more powerful opponents like soldiers, heavies and demo men by reflecting rockets and pipes, or by pummeling them. Such kills seem to pump out the endorphins which keeps me wanting more. Although I like to win a match, I tend to focus more on my personal performance – whether or not I am having success dealing with soldiers and the like. Killing spies is no fun at all, despite that it is very helpful to the team.

I know I may sound too rigid and reluctant to change, but I can change. For example, I am running Windows 8.1 on two of my systems. See? I can change. But of course, I totally regret this change as Windows 8.1 is the lamest OS I have ever experienced – and I have been using Windows since the very beginning. But I digress…

You see, I have hated the phlog since it first appeared. I am not going to explain why because it doesn’t matter. It’s a matter of taste, and I just hate that thing. Other people love it and so it goes. Perhaps other pyros will benefit by your suggestions regarding the phlog. It DOES a very good job at killing. But it’s not the kind of killing that is fun for me. So I guess I’m a prude. Oh well.

Where I am right now, I have this sense that maybe 2734 hours on TF2… maybe that’s enough. To be truthful, I have been enjoying playing Solitaire more than playing recent pyro variations in TF2. Still, I really do miss all the laughs on TV6. What a great bunch of players – including you, V3xin.

I’ll check in once-in-a-while, and maybe after I am done with my little tantrum, and maybe after Valve once again modifies TF2, I might discover new-found joy in that game.