"Do not stack by clan or ability"

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"Do not stack by clan or ability"

Post by Cat Square » Tue Jan 07, 2014 4:41 pm

How serious is this community about team stacking?
I've noticed a couple of players that almost always join together, almost always leave together, are very rarely seen without the other present, and are NEVER on opposite teams.
This type of thing wouldn't normally bother me, but the players in question are pretty good and often pocket one-another with the ultimate goal of top-fragging every round. They're here to "pub stomp", plain and simple, and I wonder if The Ville sees this as an affront worthy of action, or if it's just one of those things that's unenforcable.

it's not a serious problem, but it leaves a bad taste in my mouth and The Ville has always impressed me with its lack of trolls or even tension between players.

what do the rest of you think? I have no problem with stacked teams, as long as it's not pre-meditated... but this feels on purpose to me.

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Re: "Do not stack by clan or ability"

Post by ADevilishPotato » Tue Jan 07, 2014 5:03 pm

I've too noticed it quite a bit over the past few weeks, and the official stance is that that is not to happen, but it seems to be a little bit more of a grey area. The other fun one that I see is the "I always have to be on the winning team" switcher as well as the counter autobalancer players too. But those are rather minor compared to group stacking. My .02 is if in doubt, harass an admin.
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Re: "Do not stack by clan or ability"

Post by OmgOhnoes » Tue Jan 07, 2014 5:31 pm

It's a tough rule to enforce.

For instance, i auto-join on pretty much every map (save those i prefer a specific start side on) and regularly end up with the same players from the previous map or in a "FAIL Stack" as we call a team loaded with TVB members.

It's not intentional but it could be seen as such by other players.

On the other side of the coin, i *have* seen some players purposely join a recently auto-balanced team mate who happened to either be the pocket or be pocketing their team mate.

No matter what it's still tough to enforce, the line is clouded by trying to balance the teams and auto-balance; the former of which a player could easily claim.
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Re: "Do not stack by clan or ability"

Post by Perfect Villain » Tue Jan 07, 2014 5:47 pm

i see it alot, i always try to switch after the round is over or sometimes before but usually after because a player quit and im able too, kinda sucks some don't do the same
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Re: "Do not stack by clan or ability"

Post by frostdillicus » Tue Jan 07, 2014 6:36 pm

In my experience 2 players doesn't constitute a team stack. It constitutes two friends wanting to play together. Sure, they may be vastly better than anyone else on the server but it's hard to say, "No. You can't play with your friend. You guys are too good."
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Re: "Do not stack by clan or ability"

Post by prang » Tue Jan 07, 2014 7:19 pm

Exactly what frost said. If two people are only playing on the server because they want to play together its not a problem in my eyes. If the teams are stacked and they are leading the charge it can be frustrating but they don't constitute the whole problem. You could always ask for help from the other side or ask them to ease off the throttle a bit.
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Re: "Do not stack by clan or ability"

Post by black_and_blue » Tue Jan 07, 2014 8:10 pm

http://www.theville.org/forums/ville_server_rules.php wrote:4. Keep the teams even
Clan stacking is more than three players of the same clan on the same team. Remember we can put you on any team we like. This is a public server and we try to create a fair playing experience for everyone. Stacking includes one team having more skilled players than the other.
Based on this, provided that it doesn't severely unbalance the teams, it's acceptable to have up to three players on the same team wearing the same tag and zero on the other, but if there are four with the same tag, at least one should be on each team. If the people with a tag are significantly better or worse than the other people on the server, it may be necessary for them to be split up earlier.

My experience has been that how rigidly this is enforced depends on a number of factors, including but not limited to how regularly the players involved play on Ville servers and how severely the stack is impacting team balance. A single round of four people from the same clan on the same team that doesn't impact game balance would be much less severe than a clan that plays every day on the servers for a month and is at top of the same team every round.

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Re: "Do not stack by clan or ability"

Post by Rumps » Tue Jan 07, 2014 10:14 pm

yes this is annoying, and it's hard to swallow even more when you are the type of player that always auto joins, regardless of which team your friends are on ( I really wish the game only offered autojoin!) but after reading the prior postings, it seems fair if it's limited to 2 or 3.

my problem is when its a group of 4-5 players that all log on within minutes of each other, that don't share a similar tag, but you know they are part of certain groups that play competitively (cuz you've been playing with them on and off for years) and all join on one team and continue to steam roll for a whole map. it's very hard to call them out on it, as they don't share a tag.....so I find myself suffering through it.

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Re: "Do not stack by clan or ability"

Post by MateoTheBold! » Tue Jan 07, 2014 10:56 pm

rumplenose wrote:yes this is annoying, and it's hard to swallow even more when you are the type of player that always auto joins, regardless of which team your friends are on ( I really wish the game only offered autojoin!) but after reading the prior postings, it seems fair if it's limited to 2 or 3.

my problem is when its a group of 4-5 players that all log on within minutes of each other, that don't share a similar tag, but you know they are part of certain groups that play competitively (cuz you've been playing with them on and off for years) and all join on one team and continue to steam roll for a whole map. it's very hard to call them out on it, as they don't share a tag.....so I find myself suffering through it.
Post in the shoutbox, or grab an admin. There's ways we can check that and its definitely against the rules.
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Re: "Do not stack by clan or ability"

Post by Rumps » Tue Jan 07, 2014 11:42 pm

will do

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Re: "Do not stack by clan or ability"

Post by The Domer » Tue Jan 07, 2014 11:48 pm

MateoTheBold! wrote:Post in the shoutbox, or grab an admin. There's ways we can check that and its definitely against the rules.
It's worth pointing out that this is reactive, and I think catsquare is trying to be proactive.

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Re: "Do not stack by clan or ability"

Post by Boss Llama » Wed Jan 08, 2014 5:16 pm

As a number of people have suggested, while this is a definite rule we care about here, enforcement is necessarily subjective and difficult. Identifying the line between teams being stacked, and one team simply playing better, is difficult. Also, the effect of an enforcement action on the server has to be considered prior to undertaking it. It's more clear-cut with tag-wearing groups, though there is precedent for separating known pairings if they have a reoccurring and deliberate unbalancing effect. We have to be careful not to punish people just for being good players, while at the same time understanding that adding a couple major-leaguers to one side of a beer league game is not going to be pleasant for anybody.

Clan/tag stacks are straight-forward, as they aren't related to actual affect on the game. Those are strictly regulated to prevent the appearance of imbalance or bias, which can turn off other players. B&B quoted the rule above.

Skill stacks are much more difficult to deal with. Some of the many things I try to take in to consideration, and which I think a number of other admins do as well, when checking for a skill stack include:

-Is the losing team playing to its best, or is it facing internal problems? I don't usually consider it a stack if the losing team is clearly not trying its hardest or thinking things through. For example, if a team has 3 spies and 2 snipers, with 0 medics on Dustbowl offense, I don't care how many times in a row they lose - it isn't a stack against them. They're just playing badly.

-Is it deliberate action? Not all stacks are deliberate, but I'll be much swifter to pursue corrections to a deliberate attempt at unbalancing teams than an accidental happenstance.

-Is it resulting in diminished quality of experience for numerous players/a whole team? The fact that one or two people aren't succeeding in their chosen course of action, while an alternate strategy would be successful were they only willing to try it, isn't the basis of a problem. See the first item I list, above. This is a surprisingly frequent source of complaints (but I WANT to play -insert worst class for situation here-! The fact that I'm not succeeding MUST mean it's a stack!)

-Is the complaint based on repeated ongoing results, or a single momentary occurrence? The fact that your team lost does NOT mean there's a stack. Your team should lose approximately 50% of the time. This is the single most common basis for complaints. Heck, I've seen teams steamroll the opposition three times in a row, then get held on the final point and whine about it being stacked.

-Are uneven scores the result of stacking, or time on server? Personal scores can be run up because of a significant skill imbalance, or just because somebody stuck around for 2 hours. Comparing the session time of the top couple scorers on each team is useful.

-What side effects will there be of an enforcement action? Using the built in scramble command will reset the map timer - not a good idea if the map is almost done. Manual switches are possible, but can I be neutral/even handed about doing it? Do I need to prepare for a giant argument to erupt if I swap people? Resistance will never prevent an action if one is warranted, but one should take in to account the disruption caused, and time it accordingly (beginning of a round, not middle of a push, etc).

None of these answer the question directly, but I don't know that there is a direct answer. Yes we care, and yes we try to keep things even, but it is one of the most challenging roles we face. It's highly subjective, which is why no good plug-in exists to do it for us - no computer could weigh all the elements a human can, and even we humans will get it wrong sometimes.
-Boss Llama

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Re: "Do not stack by clan or ability"

Post by jettah » Wed Jan 08, 2014 6:38 pm

I occasionally see some very mild repeat offenders and it is usually a medic + pocket combo situation.

The other day it was 3-4 people with the same clan tag. They all got on the same team for one map and it was to little effect. Did not seem to sway the map, so I didn't mind.

I actually find it more of a challenge to play against a group playing together.

These kind of things seem to me to work themselves out without any admin intervention. The next map, that same 4-some from above ended up getting split up due to auto balance.
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Re: "Do not stack by clan or ability"

Post by Snidely Whiplash » Wed Jan 08, 2014 7:43 pm

I like when good combos come to the server, Villuns usually rise to the occasion
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Re: "Do not stack by clan or ability"

Post by ADevilishPotato » Wed Jan 08, 2014 8:44 pm

jettah wrote:
These kind of things seem to me to work themselves out without any admin intervention. The next map, that same 4-some from above ended up getting split up due to auto balance.
Biggest reason why I don't usually bat an eye, but the problem that I do have is when one team is getting wiped, several leave and autobalance kicks in, but the person does not want to be on the "losing" team, so the pop back into spec to rejoin the team they were on.
Alizée Fan wrote:As a number of people have suggested, while this is a definite rule we care about here, enforcement is necessarily subjective and difficult. Identifying the line between teams being stacked, and one team simply playing better, is difficult. Also, the effect of an enforcement action on the server has to be considered prior to undertaking it. It's more clear-cut with tag-wearing groups, though there is precedent for separating known pairings if they have a reoccurring and deliberate unbalancing effect. We have to be careful not to punish people just for being good players, while at the same time understanding that adding a couple major-leaguers to one side of a beer league game is not going to be pleasant for anybody.
Alizée Fan wrote: None of these answer the question directly, but I don't know that there is a direct answer. Yes we care, and yes we try to keep things even, but it is one of the most challenging roles we face. It's highly subjective, which is why no good plug-in exists to do it for us - no computer could weigh all the elements a human can, and even we humans will get it wrong sometimes.
Which is another reason why if in doubt, harass an admin. WE LUV YOU GUYS!
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