TF2 Rotation Monthly Voting System

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Red 5
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TF2 Rotation Monthly Voting System

Post by Red 5 » Tue Nov 05, 2013 9:16 pm

As someone who plays on the rotation server more than the average user, like most other players, I would like the server to be as full as possible.

While the monthly voting system is considerate, it may not be the best way to please the most players. Even if the monthly vote adapts the rotation list to a majority of the very few players who vote here, it may still not set up the best list of maps for player demand.

First question: Does the server stats system show player numbers? Can you track which maps tend to kill the server? If so, that may be one of the best indicators of what maps to remove.

Second concern: I think rotation CP and PL players probably want to rotate amongst various CP and Payload maps. My anecdotal observations are that when CTF 2_Fort, Doublecross, Sawmill come up on rotation, it tends to kill the server more often than not. Once the initial "I haven't played this in a while" wears off, CP and Payload players tend to exit when a CTF map begins.

Some people love CTF maps, but for maintaining player numbers, I'd be interested if the server stats show if CTF maps reduce the number of players more than CP or PL maps.

While I enjoy gullywash a lot (it's a demo's playground), it often doesn't have broad appeal.

So, I'm all for democracy, but the server admins might want to look at the "big data" to see what it may infer.

The problem with even only one of the 12 maps killing a server is that restarting the server is often problematic.

Thank you to all the admins for their consideration and work.

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Re: TF2 Rotation Monthly Voting System

Post by YoullNeverWalkAlone » Tue Nov 05, 2013 9:52 pm

Hey Red, good to see you on the forums.

I can't speak for the server ops, but from the other threads I've read about the topic, there is quite a bit of time that has gone into designing the rotation server. The push to allow the regulars on tv7 to vote to change the rotation came after there were many people who felt it had gotten stale and that bringing in a new map a month might make it better. We seemed to do ok when the rotation included turbine/double cross (can't recall, did we have both at the same time?) but I don't think the change to go with any of the others has worked well.

From what I recall, there are a couple maps that are pretty clearly popular, not only on our server, but on servers in general. In addition I've been told that despite what many would believe, there are few maps that we had in the rotation that were server killers. I think there are always people who are going to drop when a certain map comes up, but we seem to be able to draw in others when that happens. This has really been enhanced by our ability to pick up Quick Play folks thanks to the maps we run and the stock respawn (which I admit has taken some time to get used to).

There was some discussion about excluding some maps from being rotated. Perhaps we need to limit what maps can be rotated and cut back on changing the ctf map (it isn't going to go away).
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Re: TF2 Rotation Monthly Voting System

Post by black_and_blue » Tue Nov 05, 2013 11:27 pm

I'm pretty sure The Ville Council does have very accurate statistics on which maps are how popular; that's how the rotation was set before the voting was introduced.

As we have seen in other threads, the voting results aren't binding; if the council thinks that the voting would result in a very popular map being removed or a very unpopular map being added, they can and will overrule the voting.

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Re: TF2 Rotation Monthly Voting System

Post by ADevilishPotato » Wed Nov 06, 2013 11:48 am

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Re: TF2 Rotation Monthly Voting System

Post by cam » Wed Nov 06, 2013 2:01 pm

I'm sure it's been asked before but why doesn't TV7 employ a player voting system on the server itself?

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Re: TF2 Rotation Monthly Voting System

Post by prang » Wed Nov 06, 2013 4:01 pm

I am a mummy wrote:I'm sure it's been asked before but why doesn't TV7 employ a player voting system on the server itself?

I'm curious about this too. I'm sure there are people who don't want to play dustbowl every time it shows up in a vote but it would be really nice to let the server choose the map. Chances are a majority of the people are going to stick around for the map they just voted on.
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Re: TF2 Rotation Monthly Voting System

Post by The Domer » Wed Nov 06, 2013 4:14 pm

I am a mummy wrote:I'm sure it's been asked before but why doesn't TV7 employ a player voting system on the server itself?
This was one my suggestions way back in the original thread that got the ball rolling to have a map vote at all. It never seemed to garner much support though.

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Re: TF2 Rotation Monthly Voting System

Post by Masakari » Wed Nov 06, 2013 4:33 pm

I am a mummy wrote:I'm sure it's been asked before but why doesn't TV7 employ a player voting system on the server itself?
>Vote comes up
>Map wins with 8 votes or something like that
>Other 16 people get mad and leave.

With a set rotation, people at least know what's coming up, and will generally play through and not care usually if the maps are decent.
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Re: TF2 Rotation Monthly Voting System

Post by cam » Wed Nov 06, 2013 5:13 pm

Masakari wrote:
I am a mummy wrote:I'm sure it's been asked before but why doesn't TV7 employ a player voting system on the server itself?
>Vote comes up
>Map wins with 8 votes or something like that
>Other 16 people get mad and leave.

With a set rotation, people at least know what's coming up, and will generally play through and not care usually if the maps are decent.
(1) Server voting can set thresholds so that it requires a minimum number of people to vote, a minimum number of votes for a map to in order to pass, etc and so forth. You can also specify how often a map can come up for a vote (ie: a map cannot be voted for if it was one of the last X number of maps) and more. Heck, you can even only show the voting menu to dead players so that it doesn't annoyingly pop up during a huge battle.

(2) I would argue that server voting is far less likely to see a mass exodus than a set rotation would as with a server vote for several reasons: Everyone gets a voice, regular and nonreg alike. Secondly, with a vote you're asking what the majority of people currently playing on the server want to play. That means you're increasing the likelyhood that the current people playing will be sticking around to play the next map. Since I'm willing to be dollars to donuts that map changes are the biggest times when players will quit a server, it will help retain players when they know that a map they voted for (or even a map that they don't mind!) is coming up.

(3) "I'm a new player to this server and I'm having a great time. I better memorize the server's map rotation so I can show up at the right time to play my favorite map!" -said no one ever

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Re: TF2 Rotation Monthly Voting System

Post by Red 5 » Wed Nov 06, 2013 5:37 pm

I think everybody's reply so far has been good and worth consideration. Thank you.

I have seen "losing the vote" lead to killing servers.

Beyond trying to address what might improve things, here are some things the Rotation admins have done recently that have made the rotation server much better:

Dustbowl doesn't go beyond 4 turns (2 turns each team).
Foundry's time length is good, leaving me always wanting more.
Upward's time length is good
Granary is a nice change of pace (a fun addition).
ThunderMountain's time length is ideal.
Goldrush's time length has be balanced well, allowing one turn each for each team - not too much and not too little.
Gullywash - because it isn't popular, it's probably good it is a short a time as it is.
Frontier- good time length.
Gravel_pit - Well balanced and good time length.

- -

2_Fort - the default time length on this is a little too long. Sometimes, after the first round (and even overtime) it ends just a minute or two too early, leading to a restart of a full "5 score" round - and that almost always kills the server.

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Re: TF2 Rotation Monthly Voting System

Post by Masakari » Wed Nov 06, 2013 6:25 pm

I am a mummy wrote:
Masakari wrote:
I am a mummy wrote:I'm sure it's been asked before but why doesn't TV7 employ a player voting system on the server itself?
>Vote comes up
>Map wins with 8 votes or something like that
>Other 16 people get mad and leave.

With a set rotation, people at least know what's coming up, and will generally play through and not care usually if the maps are decent.
(1) Server voting can set thresholds so that it requires a minimum number of people to vote, a minimum number of votes for a map to in order to pass, etc and so forth. You can also specify how often a map can come up for a vote (ie: a map cannot be voted for if it was one of the last X number of maps) and more. Heck, you can even only show the voting menu to dead players so that it doesn't annoyingly pop up during a huge battle.

(2) I would argue that server voting is far less likely to see a mass exodus than a set rotation would as with a server vote for several reasons: Everyone gets a voice, regular and nonreg alike. Secondly, with a vote you're asking what the majority of people currently playing on the server want to play. That means you're increasing the likelyhood that the current people playing will be sticking around to play the next map. Since I'm willing to be dollars to donuts that map changes are the biggest times when players will quit a server, it will help retain players when they know that a map they voted for (or even a map that they don't mind!) is coming up.

(3) "I'm a new player to this server and I'm having a great time. I better memorize the server's map rotation so I can show up at the right time to play my favorite map!" -said no one ever
I think by all logic, player voting could/should work, but in practice that's what we've seen. I know we tried it on TV1, and that was just the quickest way for the server to die.
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Re: TF2 Rotation Monthly Voting System

Post by MateoTheBold! » Wed Nov 06, 2013 8:06 pm

Masakari wrote:
I am a mummy wrote:
Masakari wrote:I'm sure it's been asked before but why doesn't TV7 employ a player voting system on the server itself?
>Vote comes up
>Map wins with 8 votes or something like that
>Other 16 people get mad and leave.

With a set rotation, people at least know what's coming up, and will generally play through and not care usually if the maps are decent.


I used to always wonder this, too. I've made a few posts in the past arguing for map voting, but there are some valid reasons for keeping a set rotation (mainly the points masa brought up, ie server dying as a result, "alas poor server, ye died too young"). It seems counter-intuitive, but it does kill our servers when it has been tried in the past.

We aren't doing it because we enjoy being control freaks and secretly love power (hint: we secretly do love power), but because the system we have in place has led to a good server outcome for our player base then the alternatives in the past. That isn't to say there isn't room for improvement (there always is), so if you guys can think of anything to improve the servers, the forums, etc. please continue to recommend them to us.
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