stacks and rolls - le sigh

[Flash]

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[The Domer]

I feel like most of the time people are complaining about the teams being stacked, it's often the case that one team simply has better class selections (i.e. multiple soldiers, demomen, heavies, and medics) whereas the offended team often has 1 or 0 medics, and multiple "light" classes. As an admin, I'm not going to take action to balance teams when the imbalance is player created.

That said, if you see clans stacking teams, or people who you know like to play together repeatedly joining the same team, please let one of us know.

[Soltan]

I feel like most of the time people are complaining about the teams being stacked, it's often the case that one team simply has better class selections (i.e. multiple soldiers, demomen, heavies, and medics) whereas the offended team often has 1 or 0 medics, and multiple "light" classes. As an admin, I'm not going to take action to balance teams when the imbalance is player created.

That said, if you see clans stacking teams, or people who you know like to play together repeatedly joining the same team, please let one of us know.

This

[Cat Square]

I feel like most of the time people are complaining about the teams being stacked, it's often the case that one team simply has better class selections (i.e. multiple soldiers, demomen, heavies, and medics) whereas the offended team often has 1 or 0 medics, and multiple "light" classes. As an admin, I'm not going to take action to balance teams when the imbalance is player created.

That said, if you see clans stacking teams, or people who you know like to play together repeatedly joining the same team, please let one of us know.

This

yes.
that.


I've noticed a few pairs of players that seem attached at the hip, but they don't really to go out of their way to roll lesser players or stack up against them, so it doesn't bother me much.

[trilobite]

Thank you all for your thoughtful comments.

I DO apologize for posting on the forums usually to voice a complaint. I wish I had more cheerful happy talk posts.

Although most of you identify me as pyro, I started out on other servers in 2008 as demoman main, then for a long time I played nothing but medic. I joined the ville a couple of years ago where I have played mostly pyro and medic.

My original post came at the end of the worst night I have ever had playing this game. And that’s saying a lot because I have 2260 hours logged in TF2. Yes, the stars usually realign after several rounds. But that didn’t happen on this night. My team kept getting rolled – I mean STEAMROLLED round after round. Yea our BLU might have won the first point on stage one dustbowl, but not the second point consistently. Then switch to RED and BINGO BANGO BONGO BLU runs over us like butter. It was a perfect storm of me being on the team that could not muster the class mix or skill to mount a fair fight. Meanwhile, the rolling team consistently had large proportions of top regulars. And this went on for several hours.

The last time I had such a maddening evening was during the last missions of Wing Commander II in 1991. On THAT night, it took me about 80 attempts to finally win the last battle. My poor joystick. You can imagine the fist-pounding and the screaming at the screen. Challenging, to be sure. But not fun. Not fun one bit.

I understand that mismatches sometimes happen, but my experience has been that mismatches have been happening more frequently on TV VI. This final night was the kicker that pushed me over the edge.

Thank you.

[prang]

Domer nailed part of it, class balance is often the biggest issue for a team getting steamrolled, but it also goes both ways. I feel embarrassed sometimes when playing as red on second or third stage if we can pin blue in their spawn for 10 minutes or longer. Spamming the ditch and picking off the few stragglers who get through over and over and over is not good defense. It is a sign that my team is full of players who know the easiest way to win and it forces people out of the server. Every round of dustbowl doesn't have to be 2 heavies, 2 medics, 2 sentries, and enough demos and soldiers to ensure nobody with full health gets to fight. Personally I would rather play a class I'm terrible at than see people quitting en mass because their team has been stuck in spawn for 15 minutes.

That being said while playing on red it can often be tough seeing the whole picture. Everyone is dealing with their own little battles in whichever part of the map they are trying to hold the line. Class balance, communication, and teamwork can all be factors in one team getting rolled so it's not always clear what is going wrong. If regulars feel like there is a genuine need for a scramble please speak up! There are almost always a few players who will switch over and try to help. There are lots of decent people we get to play with but they might not always see what is going on.

I joined pretty late the night you were talking about Trilo but I remember having fun running around beside you for a round or two. I didn't see you leave but if things were miserable for a while after that I'm sorry we didn't clue in.

[trilobite]

Ha ha ha… Crusty and Mummy, you are so cute. I love you guys, but just chill. I am glad that this topic has touched emotions, because it should. People play online video games because of the interesting social interactions that go on and the intense emotions they can evoke – like joy, delight, gratification, satisfaction – made more meaningful by the balance of challenges presented in the game.

Mummy asked for my explanation, so I am going to honor his request. Keep in mind that I have not done an objective study of this issue. Instead, my report consists of my personal observations and my sense of the dynamics of gameplay on the map.

Please note, I don’t harbor any grudges against anybody. I love you all. If you think I am talking about you, but I haven’t named you… then I’m NOT talking about you. So just chillax.

ONE-TIMERS. My experience is that in the last few months, there seems to be a larger stream of one-time new visitors to the TV 6 server. They show up, play for a time, then depart, never or rarely to be seen again. Every day there are many new names. Some of these players are quite good. Some are clueless but sincere. Some are trolls. Regardless, they disappear after a time and that is that. May be an outcome of the insta-play connect system.

As a result, it is hard to build team thinking when the players have no real investment in the server, don’t know anybody on it and may never plan on visiting it again anyways. For example, while medic on BLU, another medic and I with two ubers in the right tunnel of stage two Dustbowl will be screaming over voice chat that we need a demoman or heavy to uber. The team demomen or heavies fail to show. They are busy parading the map on their own somewhere else. How can we succeed with that? In addition, these players don’t know who the top regulars are and don’t have a clue that they are getting rolled by an opposing team filled with top regulars. More than several times, poor Seventhorn and I will be trying to save our team of strangers while commenting to each other that we are getting rolled by a top-heavy team of regulars. True, there are notable players that regularly switch (Mummy, Gizanked, Snidely, Frumple, Alex, Hippo, Batty come to mind). But there are too many times that switching should commence but doesn’t. That is what I mean by the “culture” of stacks.

SUPER-AGGRESSIVE TOP REGULARS. In the meantime, there is an unfolding of a new group of top regulars. Many older top regulars are playing less, and their top rankings are now vulnerable. I have noticed that there are overt expressions of competition amongst some ambitious players for points that they desire in order to progress up the standings ladder. In order to maximize point accumulation, class choices involve a preference for the super killing classes like heavy and soldier. This is fine. But I see the desire for points and status in the rankings perhaps influencing the choices these players make – choices that can lead to stacks and rolls.

THE SMELL OF BLOOD AND DOMINATION. For example, BLU is crushing RED… again. In times past, if top players couldn’t switch to RED, they would play a less “offensive” class, or one they are less skilled at. Heavies would go to spy, medics would go to engie. I would go to scout and use only bonk and melee (fish power). Lately nope. Instead, I see the dominating team doubling down. More medic-heavy combos. More soldiers. While on RED that last night, I think I saw three simultaneous BLU heavy-medic ubers come out of the spawn on stage three. I am thinking to myself, “Guys, after all these rounds of rolls, you can’t back off just a little?” That is what I mean about the “culture” of stacks.

In another example, I absolutely HATE it when I am on RED on stage 2 dustbowl and my team is dominating the ditch and courtyard by BLU’s spawn (like prang reports). BLU can’t get out. Now, it may be because BLU has inexperienced medics. OK. In such cases I have voiced that our team should back away and give BLU the point. In times past, RED would agree and retreat to the second point. But lately, nope. Instead, the assault is redoubled. Meanwhile, a third of the BLU team departs the server. This is what I mean by the “culture” of stacks.

Overall, there appears to be less awareness of or concern for stacked teams and their rolling effects on TV 6. Which, in my mind, makes the ville server indistinguishable from any other random server I can connect to – a most distressing and disenchanting result. I play video games for a balance of challenge and fun. When the game becomes all challenge and no fun, I stop playing it.

Thank you.

[Cat Square]

I would never pull my punches against an opponent, and I hope no opponent would ever pull punches against me. To me, that's an insult.
I think the best thing you can do while you're being rolled is try to adjust. You won't always be able to overcome the opposition, but being challenged to do so is a little bit of what TF2 is all about.

[prang]

retracted.

[black_and_blue]

I'd like to separate this into two different possible scenarios:

Deliberate stacking: A significant number of players go out of their way to make sure they are on the same team, resulting in team imbalance.

Accidental severe imbalance: All (or at least most) players chose a team more or less randomly, but, simply by bad luck, one of the teams got significantly more skilled players than the other. This could mean players who are better at shooting, better at communicating, better at choosing appropriate classes, whatever. Bottom line is, it still results in a 6-0 roll because one team has significantly more highly skilled players than the other.

Based on a poll done previously in TheVille forums, we found that nearly all people consider the teams to be "stacked" if the first case occurs. Rightly or wrongly, about half of players consider the teams "stacked" when the second occurs. It doesn't matter whether this half is right or wrong, the fact is that that's what they mean mean they call the teams "stacked".

To try to avoid confusion, I tend to try to avoid using the word "Stacking" on its own at all. I'll either call it "Deliberate stacking" or "Imbalance".

Whatever you call it, both result in an unpleasant game. However, the second scenario will tend to eventually resolve itself by a map change, player turnover, or players deliberately changing teams to fix it. The first scenario, however, will tend to continue until either the players performing the deliberate stacking stop doing so.

[XxOtaruxX]

Votekick and voteban are both powers available to Gold Supporters, to assist in times like that. The list of them is here, adding another 40 or so folks to the list of those who can lend a hand! Many of these players are regulars on TV6 and TV7, so they're good to know.

Even though I have the Gold, I still hesitate to votekick except for people who have been afk for a few rounds.. I don't know how I could kick someone who is stacking, when I don't know for a fact that it was intentional.

I'm still kinda hesitant to also kick or ban if I don't see for myself the fact that someone is hacking

[black_and_blue]

Votekick and voteban are both powers available to Gold Supporters, to assist in times like that. The list of them is here, adding another 40 or so folks to the list of those who can lend a hand! Many of these players are regulars on TV6 and TV7, so they're good to know.

Even though I have the Gold, I still hesitate to votekick except for people who have been afk for a few rounds.. I don't know how I could kick someone who is stacking, when I don't know for a fact that it was intentional.

I'm still kinda hesitant to also kick or ban if I don't see for myself the fact that someone is hacking

I would tend to agree, I would be very reluctant to use a votekick (or especially a voteban) for stacking without first consulting an admin. Before I would use a votekick, I'd say all of the following would have to be true:

1. Unable to get hold of an admin, either by shoutbox or instant message.
2. It would have to be very severely impacting the game, with many people complaining.
3. It would have to be very obvious that it was deliberate (ie. either by tag or some other evidence that it was pre-planned).
4. It would have to go on for multiple maps in a row (ie. the same people obviously deliberately doing it over and over).

If even one of the above isn't true, I'd say it's best left to admins to sort out.

[Boss Llama]

Aye - the request I was responding to was about votekick for hackers and extended AFK, not for stacking.

Also, can TV6 and TV7 have votekick for afk/voteban for hackers? We had a hacker with auto-aim, auto-kritz, and auto-name changer except all the regulars I asked didn't know any admins who were on. Votekick for afk would be nice if a vote is only allowed if the person is gone for more than 5 mins.

Stacking should always be handled by an admin if action is needed - such things have a tendancy to blow up.

[Vi Deo]

Can we possibly get a team placement script of some kind for the servers? This happened today on TV7 with at least 4 people-- all rather prominent members of the server-- jumping on to one team at the beginning of a round so it doesn't 'look' like stacking. The teams were terribly uneven-- point spread can attest to that. And there was little that could actually be done at that point-- from a game perspective. This seems like a trifling issue to bother admins with and voting for a scramble doesn't always pass...

I know their are scripts that can actually accomplish this as I've been on a few servers that have something to this effect. This would-- at the very least-- make it apparent if you are trying to stack teams from the get go. I know it's fun to play with friends, but it's not fun when the top of the opposing team has hundreds and the top of your team is trying to break 50.

[flyingdutchman]

I almost never change teams, whether I'm on the team that's rolled 10 times in a row, or been rolled 10 times in a row.

Being on a losing team is an opportunity to change class to something that might be more helpful. If I'm not able to contribute enough to make the difference as my go-to class (soldier), I'll switch to heavy or demo and see if I can hand out some more damage. If I can't make the difference there, I might try medic, I might try engie, or I might just slow my pace (an always-spun-up heavy can work wonders, but it takes patience). I expect my opponents to do the same and make adjustments according to their own team's deficiencies. If someone from the rolling team switches to the rolled team, that can (and often does) change the class dynamic of both teams.

I like dustbowl because I feel like any team can win it -- it just has to be the right team. Nothing's better than going medic or engie and carrying a bunch of randoms to victory against a stack of regs.

I agree with this in a lot of ways. Switching teams when I'm down or up just simply doesn't cross my mind most of the time. It's as simple as that. For me I like the challenge of making the big push against a team that IS doing well against mine. I like feeling like I have improved my game by helping my team through communication or solid play to bounce back against the top players. I get frustrated when I get wiped by many of you guys who are posting in response to this thread. Most all of you are better players than I am with a LOT more hours logged, but I still play hard.

Trilo, I feel the pain of the one-timers who don't listen. I love to play medic on this server and I get peeved when some never-seen-before-and never-seen-again demo comes in and just hops around to his death over and over again (sorry medics if I have been that demo for you) instead of trying (as I perceive it) to help the team.