How would you define "Stacked Teams"?

A forum dedicated to Team Fortress 2

How would you define "Stacked Teams"?

Team stacking is deliberate; if all skilled players are on the same team by coincidence, the teams aren't stacked - they're just unbalanced.
12
50%
Team stacking can be accidental. Any time all the skilled players are on the same team, the teams are stacked, although nobody has broken theville rules.
12
50%
 
Total votes: 24

black_and_blue
Server Admin
Server Admin
User avatar
Posts: 2617
Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 5:28 pm

Games Played

Ville Awards

black_and_blue’s avatar
Loading…

How would you define "Stacked Teams"?

Post by black_and_blue » Mon May 21, 2012 11:48 am

Different people have different definitions of Stacked Teams, and I'd like to find out what the most common definition is.

Some people think that if the teams are stacked, someone deliberately stacked them, either by having everyone with a given tag joining the same team, or simply by knowing which players are highly skilled and deliberately putting them all on the same team. If all the skilled players are on the same team by coincidence, these players would say the teams aren't stacked; they're just unbalanced.

Others say that any time that there are significantly more skilled players on the same team, whether deliberately or just by coincidence, the teams are stacked. Based on this definition, theville rules are only being broken if the stacking is deliberate; accidental stacking is unfortunate, but nobody is breaking the rules in this case.

I voted for option 2.

Larry
Villun
Villun
Posts: 1471
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 12:48 pm
Location: Phoenix

Games Played

Ville Awards

Re: How would you define "Stacked Teams"?

Post by Larry » Mon May 21, 2012 11:54 am

i think the act of stacking a team is wrong, but having a team that is stacked on accident, like everyone just clicking random at the start and getting stacked, is slightly morally acceptable.
Image
Thanks to Seagreens for the spiffy banner!
VIEW CONTENT:
RIP Mr. Laptop 5/21/13
USAHB-Team Hand Brake 2012 Villy-Stuff
#HL3 TVC '13
FAIL Warpath Cup 2012-Proud to FAIL
Heck's Kitchen 2011

Boss Llama
Site Admin
Site Admin
User avatar
Posts: 10153
Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2008 12:45 pm

Games Played

Ville Awards

<eVa> Boss Llama’s avatar
Loading…

Re: How would you define "Stacked Teams"?

Post by Boss Llama » Mon May 21, 2012 11:57 am

Stacking is a deliberate action. The use of the verb "to stack" implies taking an action to pile things together. Imbalanced is a much more appropriate term for inadvertent occurence.

Both terms, "stacking" and "imbalanced," are used far too often. People rely far too much on complaining about "Stacking" when the issue is just that their own team doesn't communicate, refuses to play what's needed, and isn't working as a team themselves. If more people did those things (which have nothing to do with being skilled, and everything to do with playing smart), 90% of so-called stacks would vanish like a haze. Good team-play beats a pubstars any day.
-Boss Llama

black_and_blue
Server Admin
Server Admin
User avatar
Posts: 2617
Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 5:28 pm

Games Played

Ville Awards

black_and_blue’s avatar
Loading…

Re: How would you define "Stacked Teams"?

Post by black_and_blue » Mon May 21, 2012 12:04 pm

Alizée Fan wrote:the issue is just that their own team doesn't communicate, refuses to play what's needed, and isn't working as a team themselves. If more people did those things (which have nothing to do with being skilled, and everything to do with playing smart), 90% of so-called stacks would vanish like a haze. Good team-play beats a pubstars any day.
I'd say team play is definately a skill required for TF2. I'd say if you deliberately put all the team players on the same team, that's just as much deliberate stacking as if you deliberately put all the best individual players on the same team.

The ability to work as a team and communicate is a skill that needs to be developed just as much as the ability to aim your rocket launcher. I'd even say recognising what class your team needs you to play is a skill that players need to develop.

Plinko
Server Admin
Server Admin
User avatar
Posts: 8564
Joined: Fri May 23, 2008 11:23 am
Location: Georgia, USA

Games Played

Ville Awards

Plinko | RGL.gg’s avatar
Loading…

Re: How would you define "Stacked Teams"?

Post by Plinko » Mon May 21, 2012 12:13 pm

Alizée Fan wrote:Stacking is a deliberate action. The use of the verb "to stack" implies taking an action to pile things together. Imbalanced is a much more appropriate term for inadvertent occurence.
I think I need to make a text bind that says this.
"I made all my gold into pants" - Ignatius
Image

Flaming Cheese Wheel
Villun
Villun
User avatar
Posts: 3679
Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2009 6:19 pm
Location: Lurking in TV2... waiting.

Games Played

Ville Awards

Re: How would you define "Stacked Teams"?

Post by Flaming Cheese Wheel » Mon May 21, 2012 12:41 pm

Alizée Fan wrote:Stacking is a deliberate action. The use of the verb "to stack" implies taking an action to pile things together. Imbalanced is a much more appropriate term for inadvertent occurence.
This. The guys sitting in spectate until they can line all of their tags up on one column of the scoreboard are stacking. If it happens that one team is doing vastly better than the other one and it wasn't deliberately set up to be that way, that's just... life not being fair.

(Of course, sometimes when we're seeding we accidentally end up with USV vs. TVR or other combinations, and usually Black and Blue will say something about it. /waves at Black and Blue.)
Image

Earthworm James
Villun
Villun
Posts: 797
Joined: Sat Aug 15, 2009 10:57 am

Games Played

Ville Awards

MISKA’s avatar
Loading…

Re: How would you define "Stacked Teams"?

Post by Earthworm James » Mon May 21, 2012 3:56 pm

I have to vote for option two because of the solution we are all a part of, which is balancing the teams ourselves. The teams being stacked is an observation, not an accusation, so it doesn't matter who is a part of it or if it was intentional, but helping to fix it is always commendable, as you may end up enduring some brutality before the balance shifts.
Image

The Spanish Inquisition
Villun
Villun
User avatar
Posts: 697
Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2009 10:32 pm

Ville Awards

Re: How would you define "Stacked Teams"?

Post by The Spanish Inquisition » Mon May 21, 2012 6:22 pm

http://jnellis.net/stacktrack/
Chrome or safari only right now (webkit)

Based on gameme stats of skill and skill delta. Computes z-normal std deviation of both skill and the skill delta, averages them and returns a percentile of overall player strength. Colors indicate team colors. Accurate to the minute. I plan to reduce the download size.
Nobody Expects the Spanish Inquisition!

MateoTheBold!
Retired Admin
Retired Admin
User avatar
Posts: 3118
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 12:01 pm

Games Played

Ville Awards

Re: How would you define "Stacked Teams"?

Post by MateoTheBold! » Mon May 21, 2012 7:47 pm

Alizée Fan wrote:. People rely far too much on complaining about "Stacking" when the issue is just that their own team doesn't communicate, refuses to play what's needed, and isn't working as a team themselves. If more people did those things (which have nothing to do with being skilled, and everything to do with playing smart), 90% of so-called stacks would vanish like a haze. Good team-play beats a pubstars any day.
I would have to agree with BB. The key word above is "if". People on the team being rolled are unable or unwilling to play "smart". If one team is rolling the other, be it by skill or by team dynamics, the effects are the same; a rose is a rose is a rose.

But I do agree that people are too quick to call out unbalanced teams (stacks) and complain. A lot of times team getting rolled responds the next round, or the one after, with either a win (or a good fight to the death).

So, Spanish; how would one interpret the graphs? Any color occupying more then half indicates an imbalance balance of skill? What exactly are stats of skill and skill delta?

Also I want to point out that often time people are much better, or worse then, their stats. People often derp for melee seeding, or simply derp in game: this can result in stats being unreflective of a players true skill. Also, a skilled player who often switches to the "worse" team to help balance things out would also have worse stats over time then someone staying on the "better" team.
Image

Warpath Cup- FU-2011, FAIL 2012
Villeympics- BB 2011, USAHB 2012
Ville Cup- HK 2011, SNES 2012, :TIME: 2013, CTB 2014

The Spanish Inquisition
Villun
Villun
User avatar
Posts: 697
Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2009 10:32 pm

Ville Awards

Re: How would you define "Stacked Teams"?

Post by The Spanish Inquisition » Mon May 21, 2012 8:11 pm

If you look at this linkfor the current tv6 server summary you will see two columns, a "+/-" which indicates the skill points the player has accumulated this map or session AND the skill column which is the total skill of the player based on stats that were reset at the beginning of the year.

For each snapshot (the gameme servers only update the info once a minute), I compute the z-normalized standard deviation for each of these two columns. This yields two metrics, the distribution of prior skill and the distribution of current skill. So an unknown player with no skill rating can still have a good current skill and be recognized. Similarly a known good player having a bad day will still be penalized to offset his large skill base. Taking the standard deviation allows for assigning of a more accurate description of skill in relation to average of everyone elses skill. The z normal form only makes it so the two metrics can be compared together.

TL;DR;
Color domination indicates team strength.
Color intensity indicates player population.

So if you look at tv6 you can see that the vertical dividers of when teams switch sides. If the teams were truly even then these vertical markers would be less visible.

On tv7 things are more evened out, they just got off of Frieght where teams don't switch sides.
Nobody Expects the Spanish Inquisition!

YoullNeverWalkAlone
Server Admin
Server Admin
User avatar
Posts: 1563
Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2011 12:11 am
Location: Ladera Ranch, Ca

Games Played

Ville Awards

Re: How would you define "Stacked Teams"?

Post by YoullNeverWalkAlone » Mon May 21, 2012 8:15 pm

That graph is interesting, but like Mateo I am hoping you can help me understand what I'm looking at a bit better. There seem to be some times where one color or the other takes up more than half of the graph, that would be the stack?

I'm sure that the data used factors in my "skill" but in no way can account for the fun and levity I bring to a game.
Image
Thanks Sparky for the sig picture!


Walk on, walk on
With hope in your heart
And You'll Never Walk Alone,
You'll Never Walk Alone

The Truth--Justice--Remember the Hillsborough 96

The Spanish Inquisition
Villun
Villun
User avatar
Posts: 697
Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2009 10:32 pm

Ville Awards

Re: How would you define "Stacked Teams"?

Post by The Spanish Inquisition » Mon May 21, 2012 9:20 pm

Time is the x-axis from 4 hours ago to now. Each vertical set of pixels represents about 18 seconds.

The y-axis is the power struggle. Blue power rises from the bottom, Red power emits from the top.

If you view the source for the page you will see all the ugly data. Each vertical set of pixels represents, on a full server, 24 sets of player data. For each of these player data, a vertical strip of pixels is laid down. For example, if the player is on blue team and his score for that snapshot is 75%, then the background gradient from blue to <background-color> to red is set at the 75% colorstop for mostly blue at an 8%(should be 4%, bug) opacity meaning it is mostly see-through. Then I stack 24 of these on top of each other and you get a representation of the colors bleeding through each other for a final result. That is just for one vertical strip.

It's a work in progress, it looks different with white back drop. The dark background seems to accentuate the blue team more. Map change indicators would be nice. I just notice it is set for double color intensity, and the horizontal blending is not helping. So check back in a few days maybe.
Nobody Expects the Spanish Inquisition!

YoullNeverWalkAlone
Server Admin
Server Admin
User avatar
Posts: 1563
Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2011 12:11 am
Location: Ladera Ranch, Ca

Games Played

Ville Awards

Re: How would you define "Stacked Teams"?

Post by YoullNeverWalkAlone » Mon May 21, 2012 10:59 pm

It is really impressive Spanish. What conclusions have you drawn from it so far?
Image
Thanks Sparky for the sig picture!


Walk on, walk on
With hope in your heart
And You'll Never Walk Alone,
You'll Never Walk Alone

The Truth--Justice--Remember the Hillsborough 96

Devastator
Villun
Villun
User avatar
Posts: 948
Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2008 11:09 pm

Games Played

Ville Awards

Happy’s avatar
Loading…

Re: How would you define "Stacked Teams"?

Post by Devastator » Mon May 21, 2012 11:17 pm

There's nothing called stacked teams. maybe unbalanced. but that's cos one or another team tend to suicide themselves by not picking wisely they're classes (offensive or defensive)
Image
Image
no skill just gots and lotta lucky

AMD Phenom x4 9950 @ 3180 .... ATI radeon HD 3870 @ 810 .... OCZ Reaper DDR2 800 @ 1131 .... AMD kicking

The Spanish Inquisition
Villun
Villun
User avatar
Posts: 697
Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2009 10:32 pm

Ville Awards

Re: How would you define "Stacked Teams"?

Post by The Spanish Inquisition » Tue May 22, 2012 12:55 am

You'llNeverWalkAlone wrote:What conclusions have you drawn from it so far?
At most you can see when one team is clearly stronger when the teams get switched. The transition of vertical segments is more contrasted as the more powerful team moves from Red to Blue to Red or vice versa on payload and attack/defend maps.
Nobody Expects the Spanish Inquisition!

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 30 guests