What Defines a "Pro" Player?

[Earthworm James]

Demos are generally considered easy pickings for scouts, since they lack a reliable way to fight 1v1 and it takes 2 pipes to kill you assuming you have full health.

Killing scouts is not a problem. The hard part is not blowing myself up in the process.

[One_Medic_Army]

Scouts are one reason why I carry the ullapool caber.
Wait till they get close and hit a wall, the area damage is enough to take them out.

[Solgineer]

Being good with at least 6 of the 9 classes imo

[The Domer]

Being good with at least 6 of the 9 classes imo

By that definition, you'd call me pro. I don't think I'm pro by a long shot, I've just logged a lot of hours in the game.

I guess I'd say you're "pro" if you are consistently in the top 3 in points, and you can join a losing team turn the tide of the game with your presence. I don't think the number of classes you can play well should matter, but if you are an expert as one class, odds are you pretty good at others as well.

In all honesty though, I wouldn't consider anyone "pro" unless they are making in impact in competitive circles.

[Zork Nemesis]

I'll tell you what, I have 2000 hours logged on TF2 since it's release (it's the second longest out of any game i've ever played, with the first being Final Fantasy 11 having about 160 days (nearly 4000 hours) of clocked play time, and I have no idea how much I put into City of Heroes over the past six years), in no way do I see myself as a professional player as while I might be "good" by some standards, in no way would I be able to acctually compete in a competitive scene, and half the time I play with builds that are often underpowered, underappreciated, and sometimes just plain bad (see me when I run around with gunboats and market gardener, while perhaps not bad, not prefered and many times the gardener doesn't make contact).

Professional players are people who play the game for a living, maybe not making money living, but people who literraly devote their entire play time to becoming better than everyone else, not just for fun. That's my opinion.

[Fano]

I'll tell you what, I have 2000 hours logged on TF2 since it's release (it's the second longest out of any game i've ever played, with the first being Final Fantasy 11 having about 160 days (nearly 4000 hours) of clocked play time, and I have no idea how much I put into City of Heroes over the past six years), in no way do I see myself as a professional player as while I might be "good" by some standards, in no way would I be able to acctually compete in a competitive scene, and half the time I play with builds that are often underpowered, underappreciated, and sometimes just plain bad (see me when I run around with gunboats and market gardener, while perhaps not bad, not prefered and many times the gardener doesn't make contact).

Professional players are people who play the game for a living, maybe not making money living, but people who literraly devote their entire play time to becoming better than everyone else, not just for fun. That's my opinion.

I'm fairly certain that the term "pro" here is being used as a way to say "highly skilled" rather than "professional," we can argue semantics on the meaning of the word all day long but I don't think that's what is being asked.

What I'm trying to figure out now is why a lot of people here seem to think that aiming to get better at the game is a BAD thing.

[Zork Nemesis]

It's the people who take it too far. There's getting better to further your enjoyment, then some people who insist on becoming the best and going out of their way to do so. I wish I could put it into better words, but there are people who get good at something simply because they can rather than want to.

I never said getting better is a bad thing, I strive for greatness myself and have been rotating classes frequently with building various strange weapons as an excuse to do so (current mind set is Black Box/Reserve Shooter/Equalizer solly). But i've heard stories of those who practice and practice and practice simply to do it; they can rock an entire match outscoring the second best player 3 to 1, and get nothing out of it.

[Pwnstar]

Your name is Wang [is rabid]

[Fano]

It's the people who take it too far. There's getting better to further your enjoyment, then some people who insist on becoming the best and going out of their way to do so. I wish I could put it into better words, but there are people who get good at something simply because they can rather than want to.

I never said getting better is a bad thing, I strive for greatness myself and have been rotating classes frequently with building various strange weapons as an excuse to do so (current mind set is Black Box/Reserve Shooter/Equalizer solly). But i've heard stories of those who practice and practice and practice simply to do it; they can rock an entire match outscoring the second best player 3 to 1, and get nothing out of it.

I don't quite get it, I mean, if I'm ever just not enjoying the game I wouldn't keep on playing just to get better, I'd stop and take a break.

It sounds to me like you're not getting the whole picture, for example, I am utterly terrible at 6v6 (last match I played I went 3:21 as soldier, really bad), I practice a lot and I lose a lot but I still enjoy myself while doing so, on the other hand I can hop on TV7 right now and go 70:10 with little effort, it's a release for me, after doing so badly it feels good to do well.

In the context that I'm interested in however, I'm still bad, so I will keep practicing in order to do better and get more enjoyment out of it, there's really a huge skill gap between most tf2 players and those who put even the slightest amount of effort, and for some reason those who try to go the extra mile are looked down upon by the rest of the community and labeled as "tryhards" (not just here, but everywhere else as well). Shouldn't it be the other way around?

[Katotsu]

What I think Zork is trying to say is easier to see in a fighting game. There's the people who play to enjoy, regardless of skill; the people who get good so that they can beat others, then the people who can get ~60 hit combos with the enemy never touching the ground, overkilling from the moment the first hit lands. Most people see that combo and go "Is that person even having fun anymore?"

[The Domer]

If any of you have ever seen the movie King of Kong, it's a great example of people who play a game well past the point of enjoyment simply to be better than other people. It's also a great film in general.

[YoullNeverWalkAlone]

I think the OP was really asking what makes someone a good player in TF2. I know when I asked that question a few months back I got some great responses from the people around here, and much of it is based on the philosophy of the type of person who is drawn to the Ville in the first place (in large part about having fun).

I think the answer is kinda like Chief Justice Warren's response when he had to define pornography. He said he couldn't define it, but he knew it when he saw it.

I don't think I can define what good/pro is on this game, but I know it when I get killed by it.

[Fano]

What I think Zork is trying to say is easier to see in a fighting game. There's the people who play to enjoy, regardless of skill; the people who get good so that they can beat others, then the people who can get ~60 hit combos with the enemy never touching the ground, overkilling from the moment the first hit lands. Most people see that combo and go "Is that person even having fun anymore?"

It sounds to me like the third category you mentioned is simply what happens when a player of the second category goes up against someone from the first, no one is really going to benefit in that scenario since the casual player isn't good enough to keep up and the skilled player isn't really being challenged, the comment at the end seems more like a knee-jerk reaction that most people make when they see that there is such a disparity in skill.

[YoullNeverWalkAlone]

What I think Zork is trying to say is easier to see in a fighting game. There's the people who play to enjoy, regardless of skill; the people who get good so that they can beat others, then the people who can get ~60 hit combos with the enemy never touching the ground, overkilling from the moment the first hit lands. Most people see that combo and go "Is that person even having fun anymore?"

It sounds to me like the third category you mentioned is simply what happens when a player of the second category goes up against someone from the first, no one is really going to benefit in that scenario since the casual player isn't good enough to keep up and the skilled player isn't really being challenged, the comment at the end seems more like a knee-jerk reaction that most people make when they see that there is such a disparity in skill.

Depends, I watch some players who I feel are fairly good from my albeit limited experience, and I can tell that they are having fun. There are a few players who have an unreal kill to death ratio against me personally (raindrop and floodgate I'm looking at you two!!) who I know are having a good time.

I think your point about the level of competition is the most important/telling. I highly doubt that the really good players would have much fun playing their normal game on a valve server with regular/random skilled people. SOme of the most fun I've had is when I'm on TV7 and it is filled with most of the better players all at once. Some of the least fun has been on the same server when I'm leading my team in points. By a large margin.

[somedude]

It's the people who take it too far. There's getting better to further your enjoyment, then some people who insist on becoming the best and going out of their way to do so. I wish I could put it into better words, but there are people who get good at something simply because they can rather than want to.

I never said getting better is a bad thing, I strive for greatness myself and have been rotating classes frequently with building various strange weapons as an excuse to do so (current mind set is Black Box/Reserve Shooter/Equalizer solly). But i've heard stories of those who practice and practice and practice simply to do it; they can rock an entire match outscoring the second best player 3 to 1, and get nothing out of it.

I don't quite get it, I mean, if I'm ever just not enjoying the game I wouldn't keep on playing just to get better, I'd stop and take a break.

It sounds to me like you're not getting the whole picture, for example, I am utterly terrible at 6v6 (last match I played I went 3:21 as soldier, really bad), I practice a lot and I lose a lot but I still enjoy myself while doing so, on the other hand I can hop on TV7 right now and go 70:10 with little effort, it's a release for me, after doing so badly it feels good to do well.

In the context that I'm interested in however, I'm still bad, so I will keep practicing in order to do better and get more enjoyment out of it, there's really a huge skill gap between most tf2 players and those who put even the slightest amount of effort, and for some reason those who try to go the extra mile are looked down upon by the rest of the community and labeled as "tryhards" (not just here, but everywhere else as well). Shouldn't it be the other way around?

I understand what you are saying , and I probably could elevate my game by practicing, but I absolutely refuse to do so. I don't play competitively and am not looking to make a living off of TF2 (which is what I consider a "Pro"). I'm doing this to have fun and I would much rather spend the limited time I have playing rather than practicing. I would however never "look down" on someone who does, and have not ever seen anyone here label someone as a "tryhard". The only time I think you would see that is if someone was insistent that practicing was a requirement.