Thoughts on the current pyro?

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Thoughts on the current pyro?

Post by Guardian » Wed Jul 13, 2011 9:35 pm

I notice there's a lot of talk about the pyro on the steam forums, more specifically, what is his role in tf2 anyways and how should he be balanced? A lot of this talk was triggered when the detonator was released (and nerfed since the beta).

I came across this arguement in the forums:
The Pyros greatest flaw I will argue is that he has no special role. He is a schizophrenic class, capable of doing a little bit of everything but doing none of it exceptionally well.
Robin once said that the classes are split into specialists and generalists: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nh_ItF1wOT0&t=12m50s , I'd argue the pyro is supposed to be a specialist but he never really carved his own niche and the tools he's been given all do random things, (airblast, sapper removal, flanking) but none of them mess together very well and as a result the pyro never has had a defined role.

Also his primary suffers from really poor hit detection and it unreliable.

What are your thoughts on the pyro?

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Re: Thoughts on the current pyro?

Post by Flaming Cheese Wheel » Wed Jul 13, 2011 9:53 pm

I don't mind playing a utility class with occasional bursts of brilliance. Pyro's original role was flanking and Spy-checking (back when fire was the only thing that didn't hurt people with friendly, um, fire). The first one... exists. The second one is done a bit more efficiently by the Pyro, but everyone else shoots everything else anyway (or they should be).

So I'd have to chalk it up to my love of BURN ALL THE THINGS. And airblasting people. And unburning my teammates. And being loveably unintelligible.
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Re: Thoughts on the current pyro?

Post by Nezer » Wed Jul 13, 2011 10:11 pm

He an ambush class that is too slow IMHO. The set helps out a lot in that department.

However there are a lot of maps that are awsome for ambushing like nightfall, but now that the heavy has the tomislav he makes for a much better ambusher.

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Re: Thoughts on the current pyro?

Post by BETTEH » Wed Jul 13, 2011 10:34 pm

His job is to sit on engineer gear and kill spies, then whack the saps off.
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Re: Thoughts on the current pyro?

Post by The Spanish Inquisition » Wed Jul 13, 2011 10:49 pm

Pyro's jobs in order of importance:
1. find and kill spies.
2. find and kill spies.
3. find and kill spies.
4. Blow back advancing ubers.
5. Cause trouble.
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Re: Thoughts on the current pyro?

Post by frostdillicus » Wed Jul 13, 2011 11:07 pm

I think the current role of the pyro is to be a harasser. While burning really isn't all that huge of a threat, the psychological impact of it is still high. Running into a group of people and setting them all on fire can cause nightmares for medics. Suddenly everyone around you is calling for a medic, everyone is hurt and getting burned, and you have to fix it. Sure, medics can counter this easy enough. Pull out an Amputator and start taunting. This however leaves the medic vulnerable and not building uber. It also means he might miss a really important target who is very low on health which can then be killed outright with a single explosive from Soldier/Demo.

Pyros are also a very defensive class now too. With access to the Homewrecker, a defensive pyro can make the spies on the other team quit in disgust. Many people underestimate just how powerful 1 hit sapper removal is.

I think pyro is still a good class, you just have to find a play style that works well for you. You can specialize him the way you want to. If you want to ambush more often, go with a Backburner. If you prefer playing a front line fighter, pick up a Degreaser and an Axestinguisher/Shotgun, pick your targets wisely, and you can have pretty good survival rates. If you want to piss off Snipers, in ways other than Hadukening them in the back, pick up a flare gun and flare snipe them to death.

Is the pyro a strong class? No, not by any stretch of the imagination. Not compared to classes like Heavy, Soldier, or Demo. Is it a fun class? Hell yes. It is probably one of the easiest classes to play, yet is very hard to truly master. Learning the timings to airblast all the projectiles in the game takes lots of time and no small amount of skill.

Playing a pyro also means you have to be willing to sacrifice yourself for your team. One of your primary roles is to nullify ubers. Many times, this will get you killed. Suck it up and deal with it. Killing that uber is worth way more than your one measly life. I always cry a bit inside when I see pyros fleeing from an uber heavy. Suck it up. K:D ratio means squat.

All in all, pyro is one of my favorite classes. I like it because it can kill sufficiently well enough, at least for my tastes, and takes a fair amount of skill to master. I used to play heavy almost exclusively, but frankly I just got bored of how powerful he was. Point minigun at target. Click. Target dies. Kinda boring. I still pull my heavy out every once in a while, especially after healing some of the better heavies on the ville and learning many of their tricks, and frankly the class is still a bulldozer with a Russian accent. Not to mention, if you're decent at it you are almost never without a medic tethered to you.

Pyro is fun. Buring stuff is fun. Play pyro. Burn stuff.
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Re: Thoughts on the current pyro?

Post by El_Hefe » Wed Jul 13, 2011 11:41 pm

frostdillicus wrote:I think the current role of the pyro is to be a harasser. While burning really isn't all that huge of a threat, the psychological impact of it is still high. Running into a group of people and setting them all on fire can cause nightmares for medics. Suddenly everyone around you is calling for a medic, everyone is hurt and getting burned, and you have to fix it. Sure, medics can counter this easy enough. Pull out an Amputator and start taunting. This however leaves the medic vulnerable and not building uber. It also means he might miss a really important target who is very low on health which can then be killed outright with a single explosive from Soldier/Demo.

Pyros are also a very defensive class now too. With access to the Homewrecker, a defensive pyro can make the spies on the other team quit in disgust. Many people underestimate just how powerful 1 hit sapper removal is.

I think pyro is still a good class, you just have to find a play style that works well for you. You can specialize him the way you want to. If you want to ambush more often, go with a Backburner. If you prefer playing a front line fighter, pick up a Degreaser and an Axestinguisher/Shotgun, pick your targets wisely, and you can have pretty good survival rates. If you want to piss off Snipers, in ways other than Hadukening them in the back, pick up a flare gun and flare snipe them to death.

Is the pyro a strong class? No, not by any stretch of the imagination. Not compared to classes like Heavy, Soldier, or Demo. Is it a fun class? Hell yes. It is probably one of the easiest classes to play, yet is very hard to truly master. Learning the timings to airblast all the projectiles in the game takes lots of time and no small amount of skill.

Playing a pyro also means you have to be willing to sacrifice yourself for your team. One of your primary roles is to nullify ubers. Many times, this will get you killed. Suck it up and deal with it. Killing that uber is worth way more than your one measly life. I always cry a bit inside when I see pyros fleeing from an uber heavy. Suck it up. K:D ratio means squat.

All in all, pyro is one of my favorite classes. I like it because it can kill sufficiently well enough, at least for my tastes, and takes a fair amount of skill to master. I used to play heavy almost exclusively, but frankly I just got bored of how powerful he was. Point minigun at target. Click. Target dies. Kinda boring. I still pull my heavy out every once in a while, especially after healing some of the better heavies on the ville and learning many of their tricks, and frankly the class is still a bulldozer with a Russian accent. Not to mention, if you're decent at it you are almost never without a medic tethered to you.

Pyro is fun. Buring stuff is fun. Play pyro. Burn stuff.
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Re: Thoughts on the current pyro?

Post by One_Medic_Army » Thu Jul 14, 2011 12:31 am

Honestly, whenever I'm on a team of newbs, and I'm using a normal uber, I know right where it's going: the pyro.
Pyros are great at a lot of things, but their primary awesomeness comes in these flavors:
Airblasting: Counter ubers by yourself, move stickies, and if you're good make the soldiers on the other team quit in disgust.
Close-in Damage: Close in a pyro has awesome damage, it doesn't need to be spun up, and the pyro can move at full speed while using this. Oh, and the flames pass through things to ignite engineers through guns and whole crowds.
Burn: Yes, there's lots of ways to get put out, from healthpacks, to sandvich, to jarate/milk or a medic/dispenser. Of these the only ones that instantly put someone out are limited in quantity, if someone's on fire and grabs the healthpack, then someone else can't get that same healthpack until it comes back. Jarate/milk used to put out flames can't be used for anything else until it recharges, same with sandvich. It's not as good as it used to be, but it's still helpful. Oh, and it can make people retreat to go put their flames out, which is always nice.

I wouldn't mind at all if the Detonator had decent jump potential though, right now it doesn't seem worth giving up 90dmg crits or shotgun for.

Also speaking as a medic/heavy/soldier player, pyros and scouts give me the most trouble of all the classes (scouts only when I'm medic really).
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Re: Thoughts on the current pyro?

Post by Fano » Thu Jul 14, 2011 2:15 am

I think pyro is fine, when flanking is done correctly on a group of people it can have devastating results as opposed to when another flanking class (e.g. scout) is in the same position, the pyro's fire requires no aim, provides better crowd control, and when synchronized with the rest of your team's push it can be unbelievably strong.

He isn't a direct combat class, whether he was designed to be or not is up for debate, but if you take any other class (assuming competent player) head on as pyro you're unlikely to come out on top unless you can score a couple of direct hit (not the weapon) reflects on them, and even then the odds are still against you. When I play pyro I focus on flanking with the backburner and use my airblasts only when absolutely necessary.

I think pyro fills this role better than a support role, i.e. staying at the front lines attempting to do nothing but reflect incoming projectiles, which can be effective but good players will eventually catch on, there's nothing I love doing more as a soldier facing a pyro than to stop shooting rockets at him and just stand still watching him do the same thing, as opposed to charging forward to attempt to kill me with fire.
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Re: Thoughts on the current pyro?

Post by Cpt._Keyes » Thu Jul 14, 2011 2:38 am

truth be told...i originally saw they pyro as a main assault class...the one who spearheads and send the other team scattering...who is then killed by soldiers following the pyro in...a moveable wall of flame...but now with airblast...I dont even burn...i do the same thing as scattering...but with airblast...and its much more effective(cant pee on an airblast to put it out)

How I play pyro is constantly charge in (this is in warpath...since all other maps are for the weak and feeble) blast out the tunnel...then keep going until I die...cleaving a giant path for my team to follow...

This is tf2...your k/d is meaningless w/l is what matters...I gladly end games with a .5 k/d but a 1.0 w/l


(unless we are getting harrased by spies...then i flame around the team moving from ammo to ammo)
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Re: Thoughts on the current pyro?

Post by MasterChef » Thu Jul 14, 2011 4:04 am

Pyro's role is to cause mass amounts of chaos and spy check.
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Re: Thoughts on the current pyro?

Post by M's » Thu Jul 14, 2011 6:58 am

When ever I play medic I perfer to uber/kritz a pyro. I will ignor a heavy if I have a good pyro to charge in with.
1) They can move full speed
2) If they run out of fuel they can switch to any melee with out to much of a loss

And when I play engie I hate to see an incoming pyro/medic.
1) No matter how hard you try, a charged pyro equiped with a Homewrecker and any of the flamethrowers will ruin your day.
2) A Pyro by themselves will deal a lot of damage to a building before they die.

What better offense than the airblast on a group of soldiers. Seen it happen several times 1 reflect rocket takening out 2 or 3 people in a group, and those not killed are sent looking for health.
And as a pyro just ignore other pyro's unless you shotgun/melee each other.

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Re: Thoughts on the current pyro?

Post by Supreveio » Thu Jul 14, 2011 7:08 am

Airblast is fun, fire is fun despite the fact that everyone and their grandma has a way to put it out, trolling enemy Spies with the Homewrecker is fun... But Valve seems keen on not giving mobility to a class that pretty much requires you to ambush to be useful. The Detonator would've fixed it, but they nerfed it. So now we have a class who's supposed to ambush who can't get into ambushing position because nearly every other class is as fast or faster and they can see him coming. The other two Ambushing classes, Scout and Spy have speed and invisibility on their side. Pyro has neither. Oh, and the Flamethrower does less damage than the Syringe Gun.

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Re: Thoughts on the current pyro?

Post by Boss Llama » Thu Jul 14, 2011 9:57 am

Offensive Pyro in TF2 is a class that depends entirely on how other people play to be effective, and once that's resolved, the Pyro player also has to be pretty good. Basically, an offensive pyro has to rely on the other team being stupid, allowing the Pyro to run straight up to them or not checking corners, and then panicking if lit on fire. The alleged master of close quarters combat, the Pyro lacks two things for offense:

1) The ability to get to the fight. As has been mentioned, the Pyro has low mobility. A medic can run backwards at least as fast as a Pyro can run forwards, and given how bad the hit detection is for fire, this usually means you can't even touch them. Even if you do get them in your flames, the medic will take you down with his syringe gun well before dying. If they use the Blutsauger, they can actually gain health from your attack. Charging in to an enemy line is completely suicidal unless you're playing against fools, as everybody who's been around for a month knows that a Pyro is an easy target on the charge. The health buffed backburner actually allowed Pyros to do what they are supposed to, once. Then people whined about actually having to fight Pyros, and it got taken away.

2) High immediate damage. If you shoot somebody with your primary weapon, as any class in the game except Pyro, you do full damage immediately. Pyros do not do this. As a Pyro, you only deal part of your damage on the spot, and the rest of it slowly thereafter, with afterburn. Afterburn was nerfed in duration by 40% ages ago, and more and more ways to nullify it have been added to the game. Additionally, the flamethrowers are both extremely short range, AND have damage fall off. This means that even at a range where a Pyro can hit you, and you are doing maximum damage based on fall-off (or lack thereof), the Pyro still isn't at potential. The pyro has to be within melee range for their fire to be most effective, at which point it's generally not the best tool. Also, don't get too close. The flamethrower has the same problem it's had since TF2 released - if you get too close to a person or a wall, it just stops working. They unsuccessfully tried to fix that with the Goldrush patch, and haven't been back to it since. People compare afterburn to bleedout, but that is optional for all classes, and is a feature of melee weapons. The pyro has no option for a primary that doesn't rely on this mechanic. Also, bleedout isn't stopped by jarate, milk, or airblasts, like afterburn is. Most pyros would readily trade their afterburn for that same amount of damage upfront, which every single other class has.

Defensive Pyro is not in nearly as bad shape as the offensive Pyro. As an Engy's pet, a Pyro is unrivaled. Problem is, by using an additional player in the backfield, who has minimal long range capability on a good day, your team loses the equation up front. Defensive teams already are generally down a couple on the battle line, because Engineers and Snipers stick back. Those classes do well behind the line, and can lend long range support, so it evens out. Putting a Pyro in the back, however, simply reduces your effective combatants by one.

The airblast is certainly the defining characteristic of a Pyro at present, which is sad. Pyro should equal fire, and fire is just not effective right now, unless combined with something else, like an axtinguisher. The other problem with airblast is the Pyro is effective only at close range, but our defining tool is used to shove people away, which hurts our ability to fight them. Despite all the babies crying about the puff, blast, axtinguisher combo, it actually takes thought and timing to use. Not only do you have to sneak up on the enemy so they don't see you and kill you, not only do you have to use three different weapon functions in close succession at point blank against a more dangerous foe, but you also have to make sure that when you airblast, you're shooting them in to a nearby wall! If you don't do that, or there is no wall, you have to close the distance a second time and try again. You can pull the combo off against a decent player with one puff, but it's extremely rare to survive against a decent player when you have to do it twice.

As far as ubers, Pyro makes a wonderful uber target. It warms my heart to see people in this thread acknowledging that, as I've been left dumbstruck on far too many occasions on the servers by idiot medics loudly stating that Pyros are worthless to uber and I should go change classes. An uber is pretty much the one way to get a Pyro right up to the front line against good players, where he can do what he's designed to do, and it's wonderful. For countering ubers, Airblast is a great tool, though it's not the be-all end-all some people think it is. A good heavy will tear you up before you get a second airblast off (remember, being airblasted doesn't stop him from shooting you), and against another Pyro it's 50/50 who airblasts who. Against a demo uber, it's great, hands down.

In the end though, it comes down to this:
http://www.nerfnow.com/comic/293
http://www.nerfnow.com/comic/294 (read the caption below for this one, too)

Summary/TL:DR -

The Pyro is designed as a psychological class, and his weapons are more about spooking real-life players then about doing in-game damage. The problem is that experienced players in an FPS don't spook. They simply shoot you and move on, sucking up the pittance burning damage, or couple seconds lost from being airblasted. When Kasparov lost to Deep Blue, one thing that cost him was his attempt to use a psychological move against the computer, which just doesn't work. Playing an experienced FPS'r is similar - psychological rarely work.
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Re: Thoughts on the current pyro?

Post by TheCarpe » Thu Jul 14, 2011 11:11 am

The Pyro is a class that fills many roles, yes, but that can be said for any class after all these updates. The class can be played in several different ways depending on your playstyle.

The airblast is what separates the good Pyro's from the rest. This has been stated since the Pyro Update, and it's true. Having a class that can neutralize the offensive capabilities of two or even three classes primaries and several throwables is a massive boon to a push. One of my favorite tricks is while Ubered, if I don't think I can reach a Sentry to flame it in time, to airblast the Sentry's rockets back into itself and finish it off by Shotgun. The Pyro is a highly offensive class that has been given some neat tricks with which to make him more flexible, but still deadly. That's why people fear those like somedude, and mock the w+m1 players. There is a clear and undeniable divide of skill that shows there is depth to the class.

Alizee you may claim that Pyro's psychological impact is lessened but nothing could be further from the truth. If I push out to Warpath mid as an Uber Pyro the enemies scatter like cockroaches when the lights turn on. Leaping off the bridge, scurrying into every corner they can find. Once my Uber is up I keep pressing. My Uber may end once I hit the end of the bridge but people are still backpedaling from me in all directions. Being set on fire, even with all the methods to extinguish oneself, is a highly psychological effect. A tap of fire on a full health player (assuming they do not have a Medic) will cause them to turn around and flee 95% of the time. Being on fire makes them not want to push, it makes them want to dive for the nearest healpack, Dispenser, or Medic.

The hit detection on my flamer works just fine, so I'm not sure where you're coming from on that front. Unless you're referring to the one square-inch on player models that the Backburners crit activate on. For me, my Degreaser is my best friend, and she's never let me down.

In conclusion: Fire good.
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