[Poll] Hydro

[l3eeron]

It might be nice to put it on the event server and get all the Hyrdo groupies together to show the rest of TheVille how fun it can be, since I can see it might be fun with with you guys, as opposed to random players.

This is basically what I'm getting at. There are no intentions to insert hydro into any rotation besides TV1.


Personally, I think gravel pit can talk a long walk on a short pier... but that's not relevant.

[Flaming Cheese Wheel]

Ah, but I still enjoy Gravel Pit once in a while, despite how it has not held up so well against game updates like the...

...Wrangler. Venturing briefly into the off-topic, it would be nice if wrangled sentries had (greater) (any) damage falloff at range, etc.

[Bakuryu]

enjoy gravelpit, the fact that it makes teams consider how to allocate their attack/defense makes it very interesting.

The map isn't interesting or challenging. Want to know how to defend/assault?

Here's how. Defend B, make sure you don't get flanked from C via A, spam the tunnels to B...win. With a group of competent monkeys, you win on defense this way because B is simply a much harder position to assault and much easier to defend than A.

If a team is very good, they go to B first anyway, as A is much more difficult to defend than B, and if you hit B early, you stand a chance of taking it against a decent team, leaving them to try to defend A, which is really more of a crap shoot. You can get jumpers on the roof to stop engies from building up there and to distract whatever fodder comes your way.

I hate badlands, and I think it's a better designed and balanced map than gravelpit. That says something.

[Flaming Cheese Wheel]

Can't compare Badlands to Gravelpit, though... Badlands is 5CP and 99% symmetrical, Gravelpit is A/D and therefore... not.

A/D maps are going to give one side or the other some advantage due to the asymmetry. Some will be a little fairer than others, but they are the way they are. Even if the map is balanced, if the teams aren't balanced, it's not going to be much fun for somebody.

cs_assault comes to mind.

[Fano]

enjoy gravelpit, the fact that it makes teams consider how to allocate their attack/defense makes it very interesting.

The map isn't interesting or challenging. Want to know how to defend/assault?

Here's how. Defend B, make sure you don't get flanked from C via A, spam the tunnels to B...win. With a group of competent monkeys, you win on defense this way because B is simply a much harder position to assault and much easier to defend than A.

If a team is very good, they go to B first anyway, as A is much more difficult to defend than B, and if you hit B early, you stand a chance of taking it against a decent team, leaving them to try to defend A, which is really more of a crap shoot. You can get jumpers on the roof to stop engies from building up there and to distract whatever fodder comes your way.

I hate badlands, and I think it's a better designed and balanced map than gravelpit. That says something.

B is certainly the point to focus most of your defense on, but you can't really say it's that hard to assault when you're comparing it to other A/D maps, like dustbowl (which everyone here seems to love).

B has 5 (FIVE) different areas/doorways from which it can be attacked, the most effective of which I think is the C>A>B route, due to height advantage (but sometimes not very useful because it takes a long time to walk there). Compared to other A/D maps, Gravelpit is by far the hardest to defend, look at dustbowl or gorge, there are usually only 2 routes from which the point can be attacked, it deteriorates into a spamfest down one main hallway and maybe some fighting down another.

Most of the matches I play on gravelpit are won by the offensive team, obviously with varying times, but B is hardly ever defended indefinitely, at least on the servers I play on, which have stock respawn times and settings, everything changes when you lower the respawn times to 3-5 seconds like on theville servers, so I can see where you're coming from and why you might not enjoy the map as much as I do.

[Ignatius]

I can safely say I haven't spent more than 15 minutes on Hydro, so I have no idea whether or not I like it.

[--HaDeS--]

...but even in other maps, I'm fairly sure the team that wins a large portion of the time is the team that has the most soldiers, demos, scouts, and medics, it's just how the game is balanced.

If we're talking about comp play maybe. Oh wait, TF2 is a 4 class game in comp play so who really cares.

That is not entirely true at all. I follow the competitive scene relatively closely, because I really enjoy the strategy, teamwork and pure skill among the teams.

As of late, Highlander has become relatively popular among the competitive community. Don't believe me? Log onto tf2lobby.com (a pick up game website) and you'll see Highlander lobbies come up pretty often. UGC has also become a very popular league, full of Highlander teams. This game type allows all classes to be represented easily.

Also, in 6 vs 6, many teams off-class from the cookie-cutter format (2 scout, 2 solly, 1 medic and 1 demo) given the right situation. You'll commonly see Pyros, Engineers and Heavies when defending the last point along with a team running a Sniper when attacking last. I've also heard that having a pocket Heavy for an entire match is becoming very popular for some lower level 6 vs 6 teams. Those classes are of course not seen nearly as much as the classes the make up the cookie-cutter format, but they're still useful in 6 v 6 matches.

Maybe I'm being biased because my main classes are Solly, Demo and Medic; but to say that competitive TF2 is a 4 class game is completely unfair.

[TheCarpe]

Perhaps, but the entire basis of TF2 is the variety between all nine classes and how they balance one another. You yourself call it the "cookie cutter" formation, so it's not simply comp opponents who see it as a four-class game, the scout/soldier/demo/medic matchup is exceedingly common. Is it a fair or even entirely accurate stereotype? Perhaps not (what stereotypes are?), but they all have at least some basis in truth.

So hey, how about that Hydro, huh?

[Guardian]

Most of the matches I play on gravelpit are won by the offensive team, obviously with varying times, but B is hardly ever defended indefinitely, at least on the servers I play on, which have stock respawn times and settings, everything changes when you lower the respawn times to 3-5 seconds like on theville servers, so I can see where you're coming from and why you might not enjoy the map as much as I do.

Fast respawns tend to encourage more "entrenchment" style gameplay, where both set up as close as they can to each other and slowly push each other while vanilla spawn timers encourage quick skirmishes and using your one life to gain as much territory as possible. I've seen this distinction between the two even with the same maps every single time. Some people like that slow style I guess (why do you think warpath is so popular), I hate it, I can't play on it anymore if the front lines haven't moves forward or back within 3 of my lives, I get frustrated.

Perhaps, but the entire basis of TF2 is the variety between all nine classes and how they balance one another. You yourself call it the "cookie cutter" formation, so it's not simply comp opponents who see it as a four-class game, the scout/soldier/demo/medic matchup is exceedingly common. Is it a fair or even entirely accurate stereotype? Perhaps not (what stereotypes are?), but they all have at least some basis in truth.

Yep at the end of the day you could win any match with scouts, soldiers demos and medics.... hell I could cut out scouts. They're just the best classes at the basics. There's a reason the other classes are called "utility classes" they're at their best in certain environment but suddenly become ineffective in another one.

Although the GRU and maybe the steak sandwich were supposed to push the heavy out of the utility class category and make him viable full-time. Too bad their both banned, I think at least the steak should be unbanned.

[MrBlah]

I just like to play Hydro. I don't really care what classes people play.

[TheCarpe]

Too bad their both banned

That's the other thing that gets me about comp play. All the fun stuff is gone.

[Guardian]

Too bad their both banned

That's the other thing that gets me about comp play. All the fun stuff is gone.

When comp had to deal with 3 weapons in a single update they could usually all the leagues could agree somewhat, what should be banned and what shouldn't except for the ETF2L banning the Direct hit amongst other things leading to the joke "European soldiers can't airstrafe".

However this round a lot of weapons got banned simply because leagues got flooded with 27 weapons in 2 updates within one season, so anything that seemed to be overpowered was banned because there was so much disagreement in the competitive community as to what should be banned and what shouldn't that most leagues said "SCREW IT!" and banned half the item if they seemed to not contribute anything to the game.

[Bakuryu]

TF2 is srs business

[matt101]

I had a good time on hydro today, thanks guys, need more hydro!

[MateoTheBold!]

I had a good time on hydro today, thanks guys, need more hydro!

I second this.