Prebuilding Sentries: When should you?

[TheCarpe]

So one of the biggest additions seen by the Engineer Update is the ability to pick up and move your machines to new places. This has presented an interesting game dynamic, but one that I'm not sure has a place on every map, and that is building Sentry Guns in relatively safe locations, such as right next to spawn, and then carrying them to where they are needed.

Now maybe it's me, but I'm not a fan of this strategy for a couple reasons. First, if your Sentry is destroyed, it is my opinion it should get up and running again as soon as possible. Every second without a destroyed Sentry being replaced is just a longer window to be overwhelmed by the enemy, a window that I would prefer to keep open as little as possible. Building a Sentry at spawn and moving it up does nothing to slow the advance of the enemy, whereas even a level one or two in it's place could supplement the team and help keep them at bay. The same goes for Dispensers. The team needs them at the front, even if they are low-leveled. I just know that I usually cringe when I see an Engineer building right outside of spawn, because though his intentions are good, he's really not actively helping keep the enemy at bay until he gets all built up and then slowly plods his way to the front.

What is everyone else's opinion on this? I admit that I might just be stuck in my old ways, and this could be a more valid tactic than I give it credit for.

Discuss.

[frostdillicus]

I agree.

A L1 dispenser provides the same ammo as a L3. Dispensers should never be pre-built IMO. They are useful at the front lines no matter what level they are. A L1 sentry gun, while it might not do a ton of damage, offers more damage than the gun not being there. Also, it can serve as a distraction and might pull off 1-2 attackers who try to deal with it before it becomes a dreaded L3 sentry.

If anything should be pre-built, I think teleporter exits are a good candidate. Drop an entrance, get metal, drop an exit, get metal, pick up exit, run to front lines, drop exit, build stuff.

[Boss Llama]

I generally agree with you, especially when talking about defense, where the need to hold people off is especially great. Most of the time, the gear needs to be at the front, ASAP.

There are a couple cases where I support building behind lines and moving the gear up, the biggest are:

1) There is a lack of metal where a gun or dispenser needs to go. Building outside spawn is much faster than building near the front in a place with poor metal spawns. Dropping a prebuilt L3 will be far better for your team than an L1 that you can't upgrade.

2) You need to drop a gun in the middle of a firefight. This is especially for offense. Sometimes there are simply areas where you need a gun, but there is no cover from enemy attack to build behind. Having a prebuilt one lets you get it set up in a few seconds, shielding it with your body if need be, so that it can help sway the tide.

3) You're a sneaky little skunk, and are going to ninja your equipment behind enemy lines. The less time build sounds are being heard, the more likely you are to get your gear up successfully.

4) Right at the beginning of the map, when you're on offense. Build your gear up with the spawn metal, so you can rush it out to a forward position ASAP.

All of those, obviously, assume that the front line isn't being horribly crushed at the exact moment, where you gun is the only difference between holding, and being rolled. Anybody building at the back when that's going on should be shot. So, generally, I agree that gear needs to be at the frontline. However, if you've got a couple seconds of breathing time, and you know the front is lacking in resources or cover, I don't mind back-builders.

An excellent example is when offense needs to take the gated tunnel on Dustbowl 2. Normally, you run up, slap down a dispenser (100 metal), wrench it up, get the first 25 metal from it, and slap down a teleport (125 metal), leaving you at zero. You then have to wait and slowly gather metal to upgrade your dispenser and gear, while being undefended against a counter push by even a single scout coming up after you. With the current system, you prebuild your L3, and repeat. This time, however, you drop your L3, THEN build your dispenser. Takes no more time, but this time you've got a giant gun protecting your forward base while you build.

[Masakari]

I think in certain circumstances, I could see prebuilding a L3 sentry and moving it up via teleporter useful. Dispensers shouldn't need to be prebuilt though.

[abiscuit]

Unless you have a coordinated team on defense, offense is about the only time I'd consider it. Defense on Gravel Pit, there's not that many metal packs to go around assuming one engineer builds a teleporter already then that would be a situation where prebuilt sentries would work.

Most of the time when I pick up sentries now is to move them slightly away from the line of fire.

[Plinko]

I would say the best situation is definitely one where one engie builds the teles and the other prebuilds the sentry/dispenser during setup.

Following that, if you're being pushed, a level 1 is vastly superior to nothing, generally if you have time to build a level 3 and move it into place, you probably barely needed the sentry in the first place.

[TTHREAZ]

I would say the best situation is definitely one where one engie builds the teles and the other prebuilds the sentry/dispenser during setup.

Following that, if you're being pushed, a level 1 is vastly superior to nothing, generally if you have time to build a level 3 and move it into place, you probably barely needed the sentry in the first place.

Yes.

During setup = Good
While trying to push forward or hold = Not so good

[El_Hefe]

i like killing the engy that is moving up with the toolbox on his shoulder and getting credit for his kill and the gun

[The Spanish Inquisition]

Engineer tactics are all map specific. Everyone has their favorite build spots.

[MrBlah]

I find 1 good use for moving a sentry. When you get alerted of an uber demo coming, or maybe two simultaneous ubers, you can save your sentry by running it back until the uber is up and then bring it right back and kill everyone. You might take more personal losses due to lack of a sentry during the uber, but your defenses would be back up to operating at max efficiency far far faster than rebuilding.

[Fizbon666]

L3 dispensers do give out ammo and metal faster. But it all depends. It can be faster to build it close to a supply cabinet and move it rather than try to collect metal, especially when your team likes to take it before you can get to it.

Also, if there's more than 1 Engie, one moves up uses metal and sets up the slow way, while the second can build something to L3 and move it up.

[BigBiker05]

I think everything I could add to this thread has already been mentioned. Using teles, never dispensers, in hot firefight zones, etc.

[TheCarpe]

L3 dispensers do give out ammo and metal faster. But it all depends. It can be faster to build it close to a supply cabinet and move it rather than try to collect metal, especially when your team likes to take it before you can get to it.

Also, if there's more than 1 Engie, one moves up uses metal and sets up the slow way, while the second can build something to L3 and move it up.

It gives out more health and metal, but I believe restocks ammunition and deploys metal at the same intervals.

[frostdillicus]

Pretty sure Carpe is correct. That is what I was getting at. L1 dispensers are all but useless for healing, except to extinguish yourself. L3 the healing becomes...acceptable. However, dispensers give ammo no matter what, so that is, IMO, their primary use. This is why I said a L1 dispenser at the front lines is more useful than a L3 prebuilt and carried to the front lines.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it also seems you move significantly slower while carrying a building?

[!B a T m A n!]

it bugs me tooo seeing an engi sitting at spawn building a SG, while the enemy caps a point.
just run a head and hope for the best that your sentry will live and kill a few guys.