Hehe!

[Dog]

Configuring TV10, backing up [BR]'s old configs, transferring our SQL settings to the new server, discussing map cycles....hum drum stuff really...

Why?

[Tarrock]

Any chance of giving the heavy 500 ammo cause I get tired of running out of ammo.
Also the sniper's rifle should have 50 ammo it doesn't run out as quick on dustbowl. Also increase the clip size on his machine gun to 50 cause 25 is just to low, and make the max ammo about 300 so it doesn't run out as quick.
Also the scout should have like 300 hp so he can get in and get out. We'll say he put a flak jacket under his shirt.
Give his pistol 200 shots cause the engineer has 200 shots
Then the spy's revolver should have 30 shots before reloading with a max ammo of 200. You can mod the game where his revolver has the ammo upgrade attachment like the pistol in bioshock.

[Clay Pigeon]

[quote="Tarrock";p="76971"]Also the scout should have like 300 hp so he can get in and get out. We'll say he put a flak jacket under his shirt.
Give his pistol 200 shots cause the engineer has 200 shots
[/quote]

<scout voice> Sweet! </scout voice>

[Squirrel]

I wouldn’t go nuts with any ammo amounts. Putting them back to what they were before the update would be just fine.

[Tickles]

[quote="Tarrock";p="76971"]Any chance of giving the heavy 500 ammo cause I get tired of running out of ammo.
Also the sniper's rifle should have 50 ammo it doesn't run out as quick on dustbowl. Also increase the clip size on his machine gun to 50 cause 25 is just to low, and make the max ammo about 300 so it doesn't run out as quick.
Also the scout should have like 300 hp so he can get in and get out. We'll say he put a flak jacket under his shirt.
Give his pistol 200 shots cause the engineer has 200 shots
Then the spy's revolver should have 30 shots before reloading with a max ammo of 200. You can mod the game where his revolver has the ammo upgrade attachment like the pistol in bioshock.[/quote]

I hope you were just trying to be funny. The scout needs to be nerfed not buffed up. His scatter gun now can take you out in just 1 hit. Valve set the ammo clips the way they are for a reason, messing around with the game to much it would no longer be TF2.

If you run out of ammo, just run to a dispenser or pick up weapons.

[Tarrock]

Valve set the ammo clips the way they are for a reason, messing around with the game to much it would no longer be TF2.

Want to quote you on this, cause that's what this thread is all about.
The ammos were nerfed because the classes were out preforming their intended purposes.
Soldier wasn't ment to be being used for long range, and the demo wasn't bespose to be spamming.
The soldier was nerfed because it was ment to be a close range class. The nerf makes a soldier think twice before spamming rockets at a random target, so they might all miss, and he'd be low on ammo.
As for the demo, he was ment to be a defensive class, although I'd like to argue that he's being used for more of an offensive class. You've seen hydro games where the demos spam nades into a choke point right? Ya
If a demos playing defense then he's prob near a dispenser so he doesn't ahve to worry much about ammo, leaving him almost uneffected in the defense department, and making him think twice before random spamming on offense.
Was playing demo the other day during sudden death in hydro, ran out of pipe bombs and got killed because I wasn't able to keep the other team in the choke point. Felt bad that I ran out, but I should of been thinking twice before random spamming.
Ever seen deathstryker play demo? If you have faced him then you would want the class nerfed. The demo is a class for the elite and in good players hands makes them extremely overpowered, yet making them powerful for the random button mashing 12 year old.

Also you got to remember demos and soldiers can 1 hit kill you. They weren't intended to be a 1 hit kill class such as the sniper and spy.
Crit nades and Crit rockets piss people off. Direct hit with one will kill anyclass(except heavy with medic) and will kill any low hp class if they're anywhere near it or the ground it hits.
The ammo nerf was to end spamming, so they wouldn't be able to to get as many crits without worrying about being defenseless because they have no ammo. Cause remember besides melee weapons, the soldiers and demos have the highest crit chance weapons in the game.

Now about scouts. Scouts are fine, they're really weak though imo. As for 1 hit kills if you're a weak hp class and you get a crit shot straight through the face, then yes it'll kill you, why let a scout get that close in the first place is beyond me, as for higher hp classes, most the time the scout has to get a crit back shot, and if that's the case, his teammates should of been looking out for him, the scout can't cloak or disguise so its that persons and teammates' faults for letting the scout get behind him. Remember this game is called TEAM fortress.

[TheCarpe]

[quote="Tarrock";p="76971"]Any chance of giving the heavy 500 ammo cause I get tired of running out of ammo.
Also the sniper's rifle should have 50 ammo it doesn't run out as quick on dustbowl. Also increase the clip size on his machine gun to 50 cause 25 is just to low, and make the max ammo about 300 so it doesn't run out as quick.
Also the scout should have like 300 hp so he can get in and get out. We'll say he put a flak jacket under his shirt.
Give his pistol 200 shots cause the engineer has 200 shots
Then the spy's revolver should have 30 shots before reloading with a max ammo of 200. You can mod the game where his revolver has the ammo upgrade attachment like the pistol in bioshock.[/quote]

And in making these changes, absolutely shattering the games balance to oblivion.

Scouts are fine the way they are. They're meant to be powerful close range fighters, using their speed to get in quick and evade to make the most use of that power. That said, that's also the reason Scouts have so little HP. In good hands, an experienced Scout player can make good use of his 125 HP and still massacre the other team. On the other hand, a single slip-up with the class makes him eays pickins. Such is the case with all the classes, when played well filling the role intended for that class, they can decimate a team.

Also, a rocket or nade will not one-hit kill everything. A Scout or Spy, maybe, but most classes take two or even three rockets/pipes to kill. Unless you're talking a crit, in which case, a crit ANYTHING can kill in one hit, depending on the range.

the soldiers and demos have the highest crit chance weapons in the game.

Hmmm...nope. The melee's have a 15% crit chance, every other weapon has 5%, and all weapons increase in crit percentage the more kills you get in a life. The idea that Sollys and Demos get more crits is an illusion, because they shoot more than the other classes. Scouts only use their Scattergun when they know they will hit something. Soldiers and Demos shoot more, and thus have a better chance of hitting that 5%. Its not that they have a higher percentage, it's just that overall, they fire more rounds than the other classes.

[Tarrock]

Was joking with that list of changes

Ya was talking about crit nades and rockets.

Then about the crit %s. They fired more shots because they had to much ammo, letting them spam. Plus their weapons don't have to hit to do damage, which is why you don't see people complain much about flaming thrower crits, scatter gun, etc.

I'm gonna go check out the tf2 stats page now for crit chances.

[pugnacious]

Want to quote you on this, cause that's what this thread is all about.
The ammos were nerfed because the classes were out preforming their intended purposes.
Soldier wasn't ment to be being used for long range, and the demo wasn't bespose to be spamming.
The soldier was nerfed because it was ment to be a close range class. The nerf makes a soldier think twice before spamming rockets at a random target, so they might all miss, and he'd be low on ammo.
As for the demo, he was ment to be a defensive class, although I'd like to argue that he's being used for more of an offensive class. You've seen hydro games where the demos spam nades into a choke point right? Ya
If a demos playing defense then he's prob near a dispenser so he doesn't ahve to worry much about ammo, leaving him almost uneffected in the defense department, and making him think twice before random spamming on offense.
Was playing demo the other day during sudden death in hydro, ran out of pipe bombs and got killed because I wasn't able to keep the other team in the choke point. Felt bad that I ran out, but I should of been thinking twice before random spamming.
Ever seen deathstryker play demo? If you have faced him then you would want the class nerfed. The demo is a class for the elite and in good players hands makes them extremely overpowered, yet making them powerful for the random button mashing 12 year old.

Also you got to remember demos and soldiers can 1 hit kill you. They weren't intended to be a 1 hit kill class such as the sniper and spy.
Crit nades and Crit rockets piss people off. Direct hit with one will kill anyclass(except heavy with medic) and will kill any low hp class if they're anywhere near it or the ground it hits.
The ammo nerf was to end spamming, so they wouldn't be able to to get as many crits without worrying about being defenseless because they have no ammo. Cause remember besides melee weapons, the soldiers and demos have the highest crit chance weapons in the game.

Now about scouts. Scouts are fine, they're really weak though imo. As for 1 hit kills if you're a weak hp class and you get a crit shot straight through the face, then yes it'll kill you, why let a scout get that close in the first place is beyond me, as for higher hp classes, most the time the scout has to get a crit back shot, and if that's the case, his teammates should of been looking out for him, the scout can't cloak or disguise so its that persons and teammates' faults for letting the scout get behind him. Remember this game is called TEAM fortress.

I think you're way off on a few things. Demomen are for offense, or breaking through an enemies defense. I'd like to see any other class take out groups of Sentries better than a Demoman can. Engineers can repair through Soldier rockets, and HWG/Pyros have range issues (though they can be effective).

Rockets, and grenades do not have a higher critical hit chance. It's all in your head. Every class has the same percentage chance to get critical hits and critical "streaks". If you could discern the individual Pyro "shots", you would think the Pyro has the highest critical hit chance, but it's still the same percentage. It's the AOE that gives certain classes a better chance to start a critical "streak", because of the ability to kill multiple people in a short amount of time. For example, play a Heavy on defense on Dustbowl, stand at the exit to BLU spawn, and fire down into their spawn. You will see your critical hit streaks over and over, because of the frequency of kills in short periods of time.

Read this: http://www.mrlwork.com/?p=19

It is fairly accurate, and bear in mind that the numbers are still private. Only Valve knows the truth, but this is close. Now you see why AOE weapons seem to critical hit more often.

With the amount of ammo gained from picking up weapons, I think the reduction in ammo capacity was a good move by Valve. The ammo reductions were to force you to make your attacks more precise, and not just for pushing a team back by pure spam. You used to be able to hold off the BLU team on the second section of Dustbowl, by having 4-5 Demomen spam into the starting cave. That's the reason why Valve has added a second "exit" and reduced ammo capacity. It reduces the mindless spam, causes people to think more when they play, and forces people to play the class in it's intended fashion. That's a good thing.

I haven't really thought about this much, but this comes to mind. In my opinion, the Scout was meant to be a nuisance/capturing class, and not another damage-dealing class. I think reducing the amount of shots in the Scattergun's "clip" should be reduced to 2, or maybe 3, instead of lowering the damage dealt by each shot. This leaves the Scout his intended "last resort" weapon, but keeps him from charging into the front lines to deal damage. The Scout can still harass enemy medics, snipers and engineers, but charging in to slaughter a Heavy is not something the class should be for.

On a side note, I am disappointed that the Sniper was nerfed to its current status; however, I think the changes were necessary and good for the game. I used to charge on to the front lines and insta-kill people. It's still viable, but with the reduction in speed of quick-switching and speed of critical hits, it pushes the class back behind the front lines and puts it where it's intended to be. A change for the greater good. If left at its original state, the Sniper would have become viewed as "overpowered" by the masses as the skilled players got more experience with the class.

EDIT: What about changing the Scout's Scattergun into something similar to the shotgun from Half-life. You could reduce the damage dealt by half, but add a secondary fire option that allows the Scout to fire two rounds at once. After that, you could leave the ammo size at six or still change it to two rounds. It's not like it takes a long time to reload the gun as it is anyways. I like the idea of a two round "clip" with the option of firing both rounds at once, and the damage being the same as it is now for one shot. This way you could still take your little pot shots from a distance, or jump right up to someone for a big blast of damage and then back out to reload. Instead of strafing a Heavy going *BOOM* *BOOM* *BOOM* *BOOM* *BOOM*...dead Heavy.

[Tarrock]

If the scattergun were to be nerfed in any way, shape, or form, I could guarentee you that it would break the class.
Deaths are really the only highlight of the gun, its more useless than a shotgun at long range, and when you're using it, you have to reload constalty, the gun was balanced around the time needed to reload, and how vulernable the scout is.

The demo is a defensive class. Look at the interface next time you choose classes
Offensive:
Scout
Soldier
Pyro

Defensive:
Demo
Heavy
Engineer

Support:
Medic
Sniper
Spy

You can say the heavy is an offensive class, but he works best with defense. Ever seen the last control point on the 2nd map guarded by 6 heavies? It's very hard to break. His slowness is the main reason he's not an offensive class. His speed limits his offensive ability where he had to hang back.

The demoman was made for defense as well, but his mass ammo made him into more of an offensive class. Stickies work best when you have people walk into them (defending a spot), and their nades are made for keeping people at chokepoints, but their mass ammo was letting them spam so much that instead of keeping people at chokepoints, it was pushing them back and back.

[pugnacious]

If the scattergun were to be nerfed in any way, shape, or form, I could guarentee you that it would break the class.

I don't think the change I suggested in my Edit would "break the class". I still think the class is more for nuisance and not for pure damage dealing, and the way it's set up now needs tweaking. (i.e. Leave the damage, but tweak the way the damage is done.)

I have a lot of experience playing games over the years--some professionally. I am also going in to the Game Design field. (I am working on a Bachelors Degree in just that.) I can tell when someone suggests a change without actually thinking it through, and merely wants to pander to their play style. (I'm not saying that's what you are doing. I'm just stating the fact.) So far, I feel Valve has done a very good job with updates to this game to balance things out. The Pyro needed a slight damage boost and got one, the Sniper was too powerful and got a nerf, and the Soldier/Demoman were too "spammy" and got a nerf. I agree with everything done so far. The only suggestion I can think of right now is tweaking the Scattergun (read above).

Criticals are another story altogether. I don't like them, but I understand completely why they are there. Valve is in to making games for money. Criticals are a crutch for new players. They balance the skilled with the unskilled to appeal to the masses, thus increasing player base thereby increasing revenue. Understandable.

[Tarrock]

play a scout then, then when you've got the hang of him only use 3 shots before reloading. guarentee you that you'll change your opinion on this.
The scout is a hit and run class. Although if your not paying attention or screw up, you'll die to one.

There's a reason when on some maps you hear people yelling over their mics "WHY THE HELL ARE PEOPLE PLAYING SCOUTS" The class just ain't made for doing pure damage all ready. To get mass damage out of the scattergun you have to be right next to the target, and that's hard enough. All classes can get a scout away from them fast/kill.
Scout:can just out manover the other scout
Soldier:shoot at the ground, scout dies, ???? , profit
Pyro:The close range class
Demoman:Less effective than any other class(maybe not spy) vs the scout. You can sticky the ground in front of you, or shoot nades hoping he walks into it before the bounce.
Heavy:Ain't the minigun like 300-400 damage per second up close?
Engineer:Sentry gun is usually around
Medic:Syringe gun shoots fast and can easily hit a scout at close range, plus you usually have a guard or 2.
Sniper:sub-machine gun same as medic but doesn't have the projectile effect.
Spy:Revolver works well as it shoots straight, although its easier to cloak away, shouldn't really face anyone as a spy.

As a scout you want to flank an enemy and make sure they die or are dead before you're seen. A scattergun to the back will kill you, as will any weapon. Just means you need to pay more attention and hang out with a group.

[pugnacious]

I have played a Scout for many hours, and I still have this opinion.

First, I don't think you're actually reading what I am writing--and fully understanding--by what you're replying with, and I'm not going to repeat it a third time. Second, I think you're judging how the class should be from the standpoint of the average/under-average player. For example, a lot of people complained about the nerfs to the Sniper, but it had to be done because of the potential of the class. Sadly, I can not go back in time to record footage of me proving this.

Lastly, this is not a personal attack, so please don't get all defensive. Please take the time to spell and punctuate properly. It gives you much more credibility and strength in a debate. Please don't take that the wrong way. It's just for future reference. (Also, I'm not saying that I am perfect.)

Case in point:

Deaths are really the only highlight of the gun, its more useless than a shotgun at long range, and when you're using it, you have to reload constalty, the gun was balanced around the time needed to reload, and how vulernable the scout is.

That is a huge run-on and makes it hard to follow. Also, "manover" is spelled maneuver. Dictionary.com is a valuable asset.

[Tarrock]

Post the shotgun idea in the steam forums, little chance in hell value reads this forum. After reading most ideas there, can guarentee you that this idea would get flamed to death.

Dunno how this turned into a scout discussion, just wanted the ammo amounts to stay the same as Value's intended values.haha(c wut i did thar carpe?)

[pugnacious]

If I wanted to make a serious suggestion of a game improvement, the Steam forums would be the last place I would introduce it. For example, their Counter-Strike forum makes my head ache and makes me want to slaughter kittens, because of the shear amount of immature, ignorant kids running rampant on the forum.

Let me clarify the Scattergun idea:
- Primary Fire fires one round similar to the other shotguns in the game.
- Secondary Fire fires both rounds for a boost in damage for a close encounter.

This gives you six long range weak shots, or three powerful close range shots. This is a nerf technically. This is similar to the shotgun in Half-life. I think it worked very well there, and could work well in this game.