Assessing results of the two-engie limit on TV-VI-Dustbowl

[Crusty Juggler]

Votekicking someone that is a novice is not an acceptable supporter action.

Oh, they ask. But I won't oblige.

[Gizanked]

Just do your best to remind them of the rest of tht bit too.

[Dirty Dan]

Votekicking someone that is a novice is not an acceptable supporter action. Something to remember about the ville is even though there is a regular player base with a good amount of skill... we don't turn people away, we don't mock people for being "f2p" we respect everyone no matter wha their skill level. If someone is really so bad that people would want tem kicked then take it as a challenge to overcome te odds. Now if they are intentionally griefing then that is another problem... which has ben discussed many times.

^ This guy knows things

[MateoTheBold!]

Tonight on dustbowl we had two inexperienced engys who had difficulty working in a manner that supported a successful defense. This included not responding to polite feedback from the team on how they could provide better support with equipment placement, teamwork, etc. It was pretty obvious that a lot of regulars were frustrated by it, so I decided to throw up a vote for Engy limit: 2 or 3. 3 passed with 61% with a some not voting, so the true percentage was probably in the 70's.


Since a good number of TV6'ers are not active on the forums, so I was curious to see if the regulars on the server deviated from the voting here on the forums.

[OmgOhnoes]

Tonight on dustbowl we had two inexperienced engys who had difficulty working in a manner that supported a successful defense. This included not responding to polite feedback from the team on how they could provide better support with equipment placement, teamwork, etc. It was pretty obvious that a lot of regulars were frustrated by it, so I decided to throw up a vote for Engy limit: 2 or 3. 3 passed with 61% with a some not voting, so the true percentage was probably in the 70's.


Since a good number of TV6'ers are not active on the forums, so I was curious to see if the regulars on the server deviated from the voting here on the forums.

Mateo vote hax should be considered factual and be enacted post haste!

Seriously though, that's the type of thing that even i can't continue playing with and will eventually rage quit over.

That being said i was in a situation where the team was being rolled repeatedly and we had two inexperienced engies who eventually switched allowing me to go engineer. I'm not fantastic by any means but we managed to actually win the following rounds with better sentry placement/strategy and proper class support (spy checking/uber air blasting pyro, etc). So it is do-able, the problem is if the people choose to stay engineer there are few ways to compensate for the lack of proper engineering.

[trilobite]

There should be an alternate “weapon” that allows you to bonk any player, on either team, and force them to exchange classes with you. Call it the “class dismissed,” or something. It would be a melee weapon so you'd have to get close. If you’re a sniper, and a pyro from the opposing team is chasing after you, turn around and bonk him with this class-changing weapon. Instantly, he switches to sniper and you to pyro. If his class switch exceeds limits on his team, his class change is only temporary. Otherwise, it’s permanent until he gets back to spawn to change it – hopefully real soon if you do your job right.

If you’re a demoman and you have an engineer on your team who is not doin’ so good, bonk him and instantly you exchange classes. He becomes a demoman and you become an engineer.

Limits. You have to accumulate a certain number of points in the round in order to arm the weapon. Class exchange bonkers get one bonk per round. If you get bonked, you cannot retaliate in kind against anyone who has bonked you for the duration of the round. Others on your team and the opposing team, however, can continue to bonk you such that you could find yourself being class-switched against your will several times a round. This would be a dream weapon for scouts.

There have been many, many times when I have wanted to do something like this. We got these guys on the map who play the same class over-and-over-and-over-and-over. “Dude! Switch out and play another class.” “Nah, brah. I’m good at heavy 24/7.” BONK! “Welcome to pyro-land. Enjoy yer flamethrower… Ya tat tat tat tat tat tat tat, Ya tat tat tat tat tat tat tat, do dal da va tat tat tat tat… KABOOM! KABOOM!”

[arfy4]

I am not a fan of the change at all. With the significant number of inexperienced players around, and engy being an unintimidating class for many of them, I've lost count of the number of teams I've been on recently where the incompetence of our engineering corp has utterly destroyed the team. Both engies setting up on the second point right at the start, sitting unmoving while each other's stuff is sapped, failing to put up even a single teleport, etc. Even when we have one good engineer, they're stuck without backup because their counterpart is almost inevitably poor quality. If the broad playerbase was any good right now, I would have no problem with the 2 engy limit. Two good engineers is fine for pretty much any map, Dustbowl no exception. Sadly, it is occasion for celebration these days to have even one engineer who knows what they're doing. The good engies give up out of frustration, and the bad ones drag on obliviously, undermining their team.

I honestly don't know what it is about these folks - the concept isn't hard! I don't expect new folks to know all the nuances that come with years of playing, but the basic concept isn't hard. In my first ever game of TF2, I played engy, and I still somehow managed to build an SG in a decent place, defend the objective, get a fair number of kills, and have teleports in place.

This seems to be the best argument here. Many people are inexperienced engies, constantly prebuilding because they think it's a good strategy or building things in ineffective places. It just doesn't work well with only two engies. Also blu does win a majority of the time on dustbowl it seems like.

[Crusty Juggler]

It was so bad, that we had to kick an Engie for slot-wasting tonight. One Engie struggling to build, one Engie running around spamming his pistol with not even a teleporter entrance up. This went on for almost 10 minutes before I called the vote. When he was gone, I switched to Engie.

He was straight up slot-wasting, this wasn't about "kicking f2ps" or anything like that.

The opinion of the people who play on TV6 is that we want our third Engie back. I'm not under the impression that getting the limit raised will stop inexperienced players from selecting the Engineer class; but at least a regular can grab a wrench and help his/her team again.

[Earthworm James]

I voted for 3 engi limit due to my strict following of the Carousers Capotain "Suffer not a sentry to live". I am not entertained by the weaksauce engi efforts as of late....though I must say, there are times when a good two man engi squad HAS SHUT DOWN the BLU team. Two engis can do it just fine if they know what theyre doing, but 3 good engi's can get real crazy, though crazyness is often the style of this game we know and love.

[NoahTheBoa]

It was so bad, that we had to kick an Engie for slot-wasting tonight. One Engie struggling to build, one Engie running around spamming his pistol with not even a teleporter entrance up. This went on for almost 10 minutes before I called the vote. When he was gone, I switched to Engie.

He was straight up slot-wasting, this wasn't about "kicking f2ps" or anything like that.

The opinion of the people who play on TV6 is that we want our third Engie back. I'm not under the impression that getting the limit raised will stop inexperienced players from selecting the Engineer class; but at least a regular can grab a wrench and help his/her team again.

I agree with Crusty. The 3 engie limit lets the team help build or allows a third person to go engineer if there are inexperienced players playing engineer. This takes pressure off of the inexperienced player and lets a solid defense get setup. Also, there are rarely 3 lvl 3 sentries when there is a 3 engie limit, seems like mostly it is 2 engies and someone switching to help.

The consensus among TV6 players seems to be that the 3 engie limit was preferable.

[Crusty Juggler]

Also, there are rarely 3 lvl 3 sentries when there is a 3 engie limit, seems like mostly it is 2 engies and someone switching to help.

Which reminds me, with the limit at 2 now, playing Gunslinger Engie is not viable. Before, we could have 2 real Engies and a mini-sentry Engie helping them out, which was really fun. And effective.

I can recall several matches were a helpful Gunslinger Engie really made the difference. But now it feels like they're a detriment.

[Fano]

I'd be interested in hearing feedback on how games would pan out if the engie limit was removed entirely on TV6

[YoullNeverWalkAlone]

Initial thoughts: long run from spawn to second point on 2nd and 3rd maps. No dispensers on a map that has limited health/ammo for blue in particular (thinking 3rd stage mostly). I'd probably kritz more as medic. No more Pomson spam from me, but increased (if its even possible) demo spam. Would spy be a less useful class as well? The first 2 maps would be really hard to defend, as it is with good players on both teams the first map feels impossible to defend.

[Plinko]

I'm 99% sure Fano means if the cap was removed, not if we removed engies entirely.

[YoullNeverWalkAlone]

Well sure, but it was more fun to think about NO engis.










(stupid reading comprehension)