What constitutes as skill to you?

[BisonJerk]

I look at skill for myself as (TF2 specific):

1) positive or better KpD ratio (when not primarily playing medic)
2) amount of objective progress (capping/defending points, pushing/defending carts)
3) amount of assists (given more value when medic)
4) amount of Equipment Destruction
5) amount of support actions (healing, teleports, extinguishes, jarates)
6) amount of dominations/nemeses

Class specific:
Medic: 3.5) Ubers
Sniper: 1.5) Headshots
Spy: 2.5) Equipment Sapping

1) So spamming nades as a demo or soldier while standing in one spot all map and getting kill after kill is skill?
2) Standing in one spot as demo while you have stickies on the cap point just waiting to blow them when you know the opposing team is about to try and cap but not trying to advance your team is skill?
3) Spamming in to the crowd as a demo or soldier while standing in the same spot and getting kill assists is skill? For that matter, being medic, standing in one spot, and just healing and getting kill assists without doing real work is skill?
4) Standing in one spot as a demo spamming nades or as a soldier spamming rockets until u destroy the sentry is skill?
5) Please see #3 about the medic.
6) Again, standing in one spot spamming nades and/or rockets and just killing people without helping to advance your team and dominate a player is skill? Or standing near a dispenser as a heavy or pyro, spamming with M1 and getting a domination just because is skill?


Sorry, but IMO u just named about everything that I personally would not use to consider someone skillful.

You've made an awful lot of assumptions here, the first and foremost that you can basically standing in one point and hold down the fire button and get kills/assists. Being successful as a Demo requires skill, and can't be done by simply spamming an area unless your team is carrying you. At that point, it's more a measure of your team's skill in that you aren't being killed for your complacency. Spamming means you're not paying attention to your surroundings, which means you're an open target to getting killed from a number of angles.

You're also assuming that counter attacking the opponent is always preferable to holding. Plenty of maps and modes require Red team to only hold a point, and punish you for advancing too much. Parts of Dustbowl and Goldrush have areas where Red team pushing forward allows Blue team to bypass them and cap. Not overextending is important, and knowing where the line is requires skill.

Ultimately all of the things I listed in my post are things that grant some amount of points. Points are a measure of performance during a match, and that performance during the match is a measure of your skill (and luck) against everyone else in the match.

[Boss Llama]

He wasn't assuming that that's all people do, Bison, but he was pointing out that it's a way people could do those things. Stats are almost useless for measuring skill, because they are easily manipulated, and don't draw a distinction between a dedicated and skilled player who's doing everything they can for the team, and a self-serving or un-skilled dead-weight who does the activities above. To draw a distinction, you need to know more about the player than can be found in the stats. To be honest, your list is almost exactly what I would also say means nothing when it comes to determining skill. They are activities that can be carried out by a skilled player, but they are not proof that a player is skilled.

[somedude]

He wasn't assuming that that's all people do, Bison, but he was pointing out that it's a way people could do those things. Stats are almost useless for measuring skill, because they are easily manipulated, and don't draw a distinction between a dedicated and skilled player who's doing everything they can for the team, and a self-serving or un-skilled dead-weight who does the activities above. To draw a distinction, you need to know more about the player than can be found in the stats. To be honest, your list is almost exactly what I would also say means nothing when it comes to determining skill. They are activities that can be carried out by a skilled player, but they are not proof that a player is skilled.

Exactly this. I see a player named Pleco on TV8 once in a while and every time I see him on he is sitting as far back as possible and just lobbing grenades into congested areas, typically around corners or areas like that where there is no clear shot on him. Never pushing always at the back and the only time he moves is when he sees a guaranteed win situation for him. I'm sure he has a great KPD (he better with this tactic) and looking just at that stat you would think he has fantastic skill but watching him play would show you otherwise.

[Cpt._Keyes]

I look at skill for myself as (TF2 specific):

1) positive or better KpD ratio (when not primarily playing medic)
2) amount of objective progress (capping/defending points, pushing/defending carts)
3) amount of assists (given more value when medic)
4) amount of Equipment Destruction
5) amount of support actions (healing, teleports, extinguishes, jarates)
6) amount of dominations/nemeses

Class specific:
Medic: 3.5) Ubers
Sniper: 1.5) Headshots
Spy: 2.5) Equipment Sapping

1) So spamming nades as a demo or soldier while standing in one spot all map and getting kill after kill is skill?
2) Standing in one spot as demo while you have stickies on the cap point just waiting to blow them when you know the opposing team is about to try and cap but not trying to advance your team is skill?
3) Spamming in to the crowd as a demo or soldier while standing in the same spot and getting kill assists is skill? For that matter, being medic, standing in one spot, and just healing and getting kill assists without doing real work is skill?
4) Standing in one spot as a demo spamming nades or as a soldier spamming rockets until u destroy the sentry is skill?
5) Please see #3 about the medic.
6) Again, standing in one spot spamming nades and/or rockets and just killing people without helping to advance your team and dominate a player is skill? Or standing near a dispenser as a heavy or pyro, spamming with M1 and getting a domination just because is skill?


Sorry, but IMO u just named about everything that I personally would not use to consider someone skillful.

You've made an awful lot of assumptions here, the first and foremost that you can basically standing in one point and hold down the fire button and get kills/assists. Being successful as a Demo requires skill, and can't be done by simply spamming an area unless your team is carrying you. At that point, it's more a measure of your team's skill in that you aren't being killed for your complacency. Spamming means you're not paying attention to your surroundings, which means you're an open target to getting killed from a number of angles.

You're also assuming that counter attacking the opponent is always preferable to holding. Plenty of maps and modes require Red team to only hold a point, and punish you for advancing too much. Parts of Dustbowl and Goldrush have areas where Red team pushing forward allows Blue team to bypass them and cap. Not overextending is important, and knowing where the line is requires skill.

Ultimately all of the things I listed in my post are things that grant some amount of points. Points are a measure of performance during a match, and that performance during the match is a measure of your skill (and luck) against everyone else in the match.

Wins are a measure of performance...not points...this isnt a deathmatch...you cant claim victory with your 150 point score and no wins

[BisonJerk]

It's true that the stats I listed don't draw a distinction between someone who is a team player or not. But likewise being a team player or not being a team player doesn't correlate to having skill or not having skill. Someone who tries there hardest to assist the team in the team's objective could be less skilled than a player who consistently goes renegade and pays no attention to the rest of the team.

If you want to add extra stipulations, such as the skill is being measured in a tournament setting where it's 6v6 guild teams, then I'd change my assessment. But I'm talking purely about open, public servers like most of theville servers, where teamwork is never guaranteed and under a lot of the circumstances it's everyman for himself. If that's the case, then I will measure my success and my skill against the stats I listed, and not against the strength or composition of my teammates.

Wins are a measure of performance...not points...this isnt a deathmatch...you cant claim victory with your 150 point score and no wins

Wins are a measure of TEAM performance, not individual performance. A single skilled player can still consistently lose if their team is not skilled.

[Cpt._Keyes]

however on average a skilled player will have more wins than a non skilled player, if we are using stats as the main argument here...win percentage is the only stat to be used

[One_Medic_Army]

however on average a skilled player will have more wins than a non skilled player, if we are using stats as the main argument here...win percentage is the only stat to be used

Beg to differ, since win percentage is horribly easy to manipulate, moreso than most other stats.

[somedude]

It's true that the stats I listed don't draw a distinction between someone who is a team player or not. But likewise being a team player or not being a team player doesn't correlate to having skill or not having skill. Someone who tries there hardest to assist the team in the team's objective could be less skilled than a player who consistently goes renegade and pays no attention to the rest of the team.

If you want to add extra stipulations, such as the skill is being measured in a tournament setting where it's 6v6 guild teams, then I'd change my assessment. But I'm talking purely about open, public servers like most of theville servers, where teamwork is never guaranteed and under a lot of the circumstances it's everyman for himself. If that's the case, then I will measure my success and my skill against the stats I listed, and not against the strength or composition of my teammates.

Wins are a measure of performance...not points...this isnt a deathmatch...you cant claim victory with your 150 point score and no wins

Wins are a measure of TEAM performance, not individual performance. A single skilled player can still consistently lose if their team is not skilled.

The game is Team Fortress 2. I don't see how you could not include teamwork as a fundamental component of overall skill in a team game. IMO if you have 2 players with the exact same stats but one is better at teamwork than the other then that is the more skilled player particularly on a pub server.

[FUSE]

He wasn't assuming that that's all people do, Bison, but he was pointing out that it's a way people could do those things. Stats are almost useless for measuring skill, because they are easily manipulated, and don't draw a distinction between a dedicated and skilled player who's doing everything they can for the team, and a self-serving or un-skilled dead-weight who does the activities above. To draw a distinction, you need to know more about the player than can be found in the stats. To be honest, your list is almost exactly what I would also say means nothing when it comes to determining skill. They are activities that can be carried out by a skilled player, but they are not proof that a player is skilled.

Thank you for understanding my POV

It's true that the stats I listed don't draw a distinction between someone who is a team player or not. But likewise being a team player or not being a team player doesn't correlate to having skill or not having skill. Someone who tries there hardest to assist the team in the team's objective could be less skilled than a player who consistently goes renegade and pays no attention to the rest of the team.

If you want to add extra stipulations, such as the skill is being measured in a tournament setting where it's 6v6 guild teams, then I'd change my assessment. But I'm talking purely about open, public servers like most of theville servers, where teamwork is never guaranteed and under a lot of the circumstances it's everyman for himself. If that's the case, then I will measure my success and my skill against the stats I listed, and not against the strength or composition of my teammates.

Wins are a measure of performance...not points...this isnt a deathmatch...you cant claim victory with your 150 point score and no wins

Wins are a measure of TEAM performance, not individual performance. A single skilled player can still consistently lose if their team is not skilled.

The game is Team Fortress 2. I don't see how you could not include teamwork as a fundamental component of overall skill in a team game. IMO if you have 2 players with the exact same stats but one is better at teamwork than the other then that is the more skilled player particularly on a pub server.

And I agree....

[BisonJerk]

The game is Team Fortress 2. I don't see how you could not include teamwork as a fundamental component of overall skill in a team game. IMO if you have 2 players with the exact same stats but one is better at teamwork than the other then that is the more skilled player particularly on a pub server.

Well, I'm open to including a measure for teamwork as a portion of skill measurement, if you can give me a measurable criteria for teamwork.

[Cpt._Keyes]

however on average a skilled player will have more wins than a non skilled player, if we are using stats as the main argument here...win percentage is the only stat to be used

Beg to differ, since win percentage is horribly easy to manipulate, moreso than most other stats.

I differ with your differing...its just as easy...(quitting so as not to get the loss) but while ive seen pubbers do that...i hardly ever...if at all see regs do it...as a generality for the regs on our stats... w% is a good factor to use

[(LSAP)Duke Nukem]

however on average a skilled player will have more wins than a non skilled player, if we are using stats as the main argument here...win percentage is the only stat to be used

Beg to differ, since win percentage is horribly easy to manipulate, moreso than most other stats.

I differ with your differing...its just as easy...(quitting so as not to get the loss) but while ive seen pubbers do that...i hardly ever...if at all see regs do it...as a generality for the regs on our stats... w% is a good factor to use

I was thinking maybe the sheer randomness of good/bad teammates and/or skilled players can result in such a wonky win/lose percentage that you cant really say one way or the other. The player could be fantastically skilled both with his team and by himself but could be dealt a bad hand when it comes to pub matches.

Am I the only one who doesn't feel like ending a match because it causes people to leave the server and sometimes that results in a landslide of people disconnecting? (Especially since Warpath is my favorite and the only server with it)
I could end the match but I don't feel like it and end up farming a bunch of kills, or I intentionally open up the bottom areas to make it more interesting if the two teams have been stuck between points 2 and 3 forever.

Also, I named my bottle the "Plas-ticator" after Plas because it's the classiest way to kill someone with a crit bottle after sticky jumping

[Cpt._Keyes]

I differ with your differing...its just as easy...(quitting so as not to get the loss) but while ive seen pubbers do that...i hardly ever...if at all see regs do it...as a generality for the regs on our stats... w% is a good factor to use

I was thinking maybe the sheer randomness of good/bad teammates and/or skilled players can result in such a wonky win/lose percentage that you cant really say one way or the other. The player could be fantastically skilled both with his team and by himself but could be dealt a bad hand when it comes to pub matches.

Am I the only one who doesn't feel like ending a match because it causes people to leave the server and sometimes that results in a landslide of people disconnecting? (Especially since Warpath is my favorite and the only server with it)
I could end the match but I don't feel like it and end up farming a bunch of kills, or I intentionally open up the bottom areas to make it more interesting if the two teams have been stuck between points 2 and 3 forever.

Also, I named my bottle the "Plas-ticator" after Plas because it's the classiest way to kill someone with a crit bottle after sticky jumping

of course you get outliers...but generally...and statistics are all about generalization

and no...im the same way...i love me a good stalemate...which again i guess is why i love teh ocho

[somedude]

The game is Team Fortress 2. I don't see how you could not include teamwork as a fundamental component of overall skill in a team game. IMO if you have 2 players with the exact same stats but one is better at teamwork than the other then that is the more skilled player particularly on a pub server.

Well, I'm open to including a measure for teamwork as a portion of skill measurement, if you can give me a measurable criteria for teamwork.

Your original point was that skills associated with teamwork were only necessary for league play and not a factor on public servers. My argument is that teamwork is a factor of skill in a team game regardless of the format. There are no statistics gathered for these intangible traits or properties that can be formed into "measurable criteria". There are no statistics for key factors of teamwork like effective communication, which several people in this thread have acknowledged as a trait of a skilled player in TF2. But just because it can't be tracked as a statistic to "measure" does not discount the value it brings to either league or public play.

[BisonJerk]

Your original point was that skills associated with teamwork were only necessary for league play and not a factor on public servers. My argument is that teamwork is a factor of skill in a team game regardless of the format. There are no statistics gathered for these intangible traits or properties that can be formed into "measurable criteria". There are no statistics for key factors of teamwork like effective communication, which several people in this thread have acknowledged as a trait of a skilled player in TF2. But just because it can't be tracked as a statistic to "measure" does not discount the value it brings to either league or public play.

My point was that teamwork does not equal skill. And vice versa that rogue behavior does not equal a lack of skill. That things are that black and white. You need to look at a sum of factors to determine skill, not just one.

Ultimately then, I stand by my original post that lists out various trackable stats that I hold myself to. I would simply state that I consider the measure of teamwork to be demonstrated within the combined trackable stats.