Something strange and troubling is happening with TF2

[Crusty Juggler]

I'll say it again, I don't have a problem with novice players. I have a problem with novice players who refuse to listen to their team.

When TF2 first went free-to-play, I would give out hats to novices who followed instructions. I cannot remember the last time I gave a hat away.

[Cat Square]

I cant remember the last time you gave me your medical clipboard...

[Boss Llama]

I'll say it again, I don't have a problem with novice players. I have a problem with novice players who refuse to listen to their team.

When TF2 first went free-to-play, I would give out hats to novices who followed instructions. I cannot remember the last time I gave a hat away.

Aye - herein lies the difference between a newbie and noob. We were all newbies once, and it's always a pleasure to help one out. A noob, however, neither knows how to play the game, nor is willing to learn. I can remember the very first TF2 game I ever played in - I played engy on 2Fort. I still managed to defend the objective, put up functional teleports, and not impair my team. It blows my mind the level of not-even-trying that we sometimes see. A team of newbies isn't a problem - you can win with that. A team of noobs, however, is doomed.

[cam]

I'll say it again, I don't have a problem with novice players. I have a problem with novice players who refuse to listen to their team.

I think that attitude plays a big part of whether people will listen to you or not. I'm not pointing fingers at anyone because I am as guilty as anyone of getting to the point where I snap on the mic and just start demanding people play better.

I've noticed that on the nights where we get regs playing some good games the new players pick up on the friendly-yet-comepetive vibes and say stuff like:
"Wow, an actual game where people are friendly?"
or
"Holy crap, there's some good players here."

Now I'm not saying that we should coddle noobs, but I remember sticking around theville originally because people gave out positive reinforcement. When one team started to roll the other team, the regs would captain the flip up and start pointing out how people could be playing better without being a jerk about it. Now it either doesn't happen, or people just start raging.

[Crusty Juggler]

I don't say anything when it's noobfest on TV6. Not over chat, not over voice. Nothing. You guys know that.

I certainly don't snap over the mic, it's the complete opposite. Cold silence while our team gets repeatedly rolled and I happily play Demoknight.

[The Domer]

I'll say it again, I don't have a problem with novice players. I have a problem with novice players who refuse to listen to their team.

When TF2 first went free-to-play, I would give out hats to novices who followed instructions. I cannot remember the last time I gave a hat away.

Aye - herein lies the difference between a newbie and noob. We were all newbies once, and it's always a pleasure to help one out. A noob, however, neither knows how to play the game, nor is willing to learn. I can remember the very first TF2 game I ever played in - I played engy on 2Fort. I still managed to defend the objective, put up functional teleports, and not impair my team. It blows my mind the level of not-even-trying that we sometimes see. A team of newbies isn't a problem - you can win with that. A team of noobs, however, is doomed.

I have a hunch there is an age thing here too though, I think a lot of the "n00bs" who don't ever even seem to grasp the basic concept might be kids.

[Overcharged]

Warpath is the only map i really enjoy its been sad to see it so dead adn even when it lives it dies after 1 game.

Maybe a ville steam event announcement every couple of days around peak time to try and get the attention of multiple people to seed the server?

Dustbowl and rotation are always well stocked maybe a little reminder sent out would help rekindle warpath. since its no longer always seeded its easy to not even think abotu it at night when gaming.

need to try and make it a normal priority again for people who have given up/forgotton it.

[cam]

I don't say anything when it's noobfest on TV6. Not over chat, not over voice. Nothing. You guys know that.

I certainly don't snap over the mic, it's the complete opposite. Cold silence while our team gets repeatedly rolled and I happily play Demoknight.

All I'm saying is that a team that keeps getting rolled might just needs a captain to rally around.

[trilobite]

I certainly don't snap over the mic, it's the complete opposite. Cold silence while our team gets repeatedly rolled and I happily play Demoknight.

I can attest to that. Crusty is always civil and even-tempered. Often with some urgency, but never snippy or judgmental. In fact, I rarely hear criticizing or insulting comments over voice chat from regulars.

I think we have established in this thread and many previous threads that new players have varying abilities and motivations. And we can comment on that 'til Kingdom come. The question I have is, how can regulars at the Ville encourage new players to stay on the servers longer?

If there is in fact a trend of low residency time and high attrition for new players (which was my sense when I started this thread), is this a problem (which I think it is) and if so, what can be done about it?

Many commenters offered some suggestions above -- to which I have replied (above). But I want to focus on attrition for a moment. Allow me to brainstorm here. I have some ideas / questions:

1. Is Dustbowl the best map for 24/7? Are there alternative maps that might be featured 24/7 that could be more popular? I have no real opinion on this, but the "Rotation" crew might have some input. I know what somedude is thinking (W.....h). Or, is there a smaller rotation of 3-4 maps that would give new players (and regulars) a chance to mix it up a little but would allow them to quickly gain high familiarity with these maps?

2. Is there a time during a set of matches when the regulars are just too freakin' deadly for new players to handle? I play on other pub servers occasionally, and I do quite well. But here at the Ville, I get my clocked cleaned regularly. Is the Ville sometimes too scary and hard? Is that why new players don't stay around?

3. Like mummy says, could the regulars at the Ville set aside their natural competitiveness and offer helpful suggestions to new players on their team? Provided that the given players are receptive to suggestions? You could start it off with something like..." PlayerX, I have some ideas on how to improve your teleporter placement. Would you like to hear them?"

4. Could medics spread the love more often by offering to uber a complete stranger? "Yo! PlayerX, I have an uber ready. You want a chance for fame and glory?" Could work best if your team has been racking up victory-after-victory. I believe nothing says, "Welcome to the Ville" more convincingly than the treat and trust of an uber.

What do you think?

[darklin0]

I certainly don't snap over the mic, it's the complete opposite. Cold silence while our team gets repeatedly rolled and I happily play Demoknight.

I totally never do that........

[Crusty Juggler]

4. Could medics spread the love more often by offering to uber a complete stranger? "Yo! PlayerX, I have an uber ready. You want a chance for fame and glory?" Could work best if your team has been racking up victory-after-victory. I believe nothing says, "Welcome to the Ville" more convincingly than the treat and trust of an uber.

When someone says, "Don't uber me, I suck" I'm like, "Uber you? No problem!". And if they do indeed screw up the charge, I uber them again! Gotta give 'em a second chance.

[darklin0]

1. Is Dustbowl the best map for 24/7? Are there alternative maps that might be featured 24/7 that could be more popular? I have no real opinion on this, but the "Rotation" crew might have some input. I know what somedude is thinking (W.....h). Or, is there a smaller rotation of 3-4 maps that would give new players (and regulars) a chance to mix it up a little but would allow them to quickly gain high familiarity with these maps?

2. Is there a time during a set of matches when the regulars are just too freakin' deadly for new players to handle? I play on other pub servers occasionally, and I do quite well. But here at the Ville, I get my clocked cleaned regularly. Is the Ville sometimes too scary and hard? Is that why new players don't stay around?

3. Like mummy says, could the regulars at the Ville set aside their natural competitiveness and offer helpful suggestions to new players on their team? Provided that the given players are receptive to suggestions? You could start it off with something like..." PlayerX, I have some ideas on how to improve your teleporter placement. Would you like to hear them?"

4. Could medics spread the love more often by offering to uber a complete stranger? "Yo! PlayerX, I have an uber ready. You want a chance for fame and glory?" Could work best if your team has been racking up victory-after-victory. I believe nothing says, "Welcome to the Ville" more convincingly than the treat and trust of an uber.

What do you think?

1. I mainly play in rotation and I have to say I do not like to be 24/7 on a single map, not even the ones I like. That is why I like 7 so much, that variety. I do miss downfall. (I am no official representative of TV7)

2. Could be, but I know some new people come back for the challenge. I know I did! When I first started playing I randomly landed in a Ville server one day and was so horribly mangled that I was mentally scarred to this day. I blame Raindrop.

3. Depends on the player, but its not a necessity for people to lower their competitiveness. I know a couple of players on TV7 that always give out helpful info to players so they can win, Bishop is one who pops into mind.

4. Yes! I do this from time to time, especially if I am the second medic and the other medic is good. I also uber Baron from time to time when he is a spy disguised as an allied heavy. I have never laughed harder at people running away.

[Baron_OHM]

1. Regular of TV7. Same reasons as darklin. I think a 3-4 rotation map where the server could be cool.
You could even try having each of those 3-4 actually be multiple packs of maps that are set each month (by voting). That way it would allow players to get very familiar with a set of maps while those who become regulars would have some chance for variety. And if one pack kept getting picked, it would just become a server for those 3-4 maps.

2. Yes. That's one of the reasons why I stay here. This is one of the few communities where I feel like I can really get some training out of it. More importantly, it's the one of only two TF2 communities I know of where I can improve my skills and have fun while doing it.
As for Raindrop, blame him for me playing spy at all.
No seriously.
That's why.
100%.
:3

3. I definitely am part of the problem. I give out way too much tactical 'advice' and do it as quite the surly gentlemen. Now that I've read this, I'm gonna try to be kinder with the "don't build your sentry next to mine" and "hey, there's a cart. try pushing it" lines. XD

4. Pockets seem to only come rarely on Rotation. In TV7, I see medics pass around ubers like cheap beer and they usually give the player fair warning to allow for reloading and good timing. It's heart-warming, and more importantly good for keeping the heart intact.

And another thing. I'm still fairly fresh to this community and I don't think you all give yourself enough credit. You all are really kind people.

[Boss Llama]

My opinions:

If there is in fact a trend of low residency time and high attrition for new players (which was my sense when I started this thread), is this a problem (which I think it is) and if so, what can be done about it?

It is not inherently a problem. It's only a problem if the low time-on-server belongs to players we desire to keep - the ones who either know how to play, or are interested in learning. In other words, team players! The best way to retain the people who will make the server a good place, IMO, has to be identifying them and working with them directly. If somebody triggers your spider sense, chat with them, help them out, joke around, make them remember our community. A person who doesn't know what the heck they're doing, but is trying hard and asking for advice (or following it when given) is a valuable future asset. If you see them, give them kudos for what they did right ("Great shot, soandso"), try to push or defend with them ("I got your back, soandso" or "Thanks, soandso"), and otherwise keep their interests in mind. Give them a reason to return

1. Is Dustbowl the best map for 24/7? Are there alternative maps that might be featured 24/7 that could be more popular? I have no real opinion on this, but the "Rotation" crew might have some input. I know what somedude is thinking (W.....h). Or, is there a smaller rotation of 3-4 maps that would give new players (and regulars) a chance to mix it up a little but would allow them to quickly gain high familiarity with these maps?

Yes, it is. It is consistently popular and consistently full when we'd expect it to be. Our other 24/7 attempts are either gone or empty. Remember, what you pointed out in the first post of the thread as a sign of trouble isn't that Dustbowl is empty, or even that it has open slots. It's that the wait time for getting in to the full server is shorter than it used to be. This server is still full, and people are still willing to line up and wait to play here. That says a lot - the only other place I routinely run in to that in TF2 is on the most popular trade servers.

2. Is there a time during a set of matches when the regulars are just too freakin' deadly for new players to handle? I play on other pub servers occasionally, and I do quite well. But here at the Ville, I get my clocked cleaned regularly. Is the Ville sometimes too scary and hard? Is that why new players don't stay around?

Probably, but this is not a problem. My best friend refused to play at The Ville back in the day because he would consistently get beaten so severely. At the places he usually played, he was a regular feature on the MVP board. Things have become significantly easier of late what with the inflow of bad and outflow of good, but the level of play here is still usually higher than I've found elsewhere amongst non-competitive communities, even if it isn't up to our old standard. Desirable players seek out places like this - they don't hide from them - so I really don't care if people are scared off by that aspect of our servers. To quote Henry V - "We would not die in that man's company, who fears his fellowship to die with us."

3. Like mummy says, could the regulars at the Ville set aside their natural competitiveness and offer helpful suggestions to new players on their team? Provided that the given players are receptive to suggestions? You could start it off with something like..." PlayerX, I have some ideas on how to improve your teleporter placement. Would you like to hear them?"

We should always be reaching out to new players who are willing to listen. That's not about setting aside competitiveness, that's about being competitive. Your team will not succeed without all cylinders firing, so it is in the best interest of anybody trying to win to try and assist their teammates in any way possible. As far as the wording, I tend to simply make the suggestion (politely, of course), without asking. Half of these folks don't have mics, and there is a certain amount of face to be lost from asking for help. Simply taking a suggestion that is offered, however, is a much easier dish for most folks to swallow. Two other things I do to try and increase receptivity are 1) To phrase my suggestion as a choice ("There is a great spot up here that will really help the team by doing X, if you're interested") so the player feels empowered, can take credit for making the move, and understands why something is better so they can repeat it in the future, and 2) I generally will only identify a player by their class until I know they're receptive ("Engy, there's..."), as some people will feel that publicly using their name while telling them how to play better is a form of calling them out or insulting them. It's stupid, but I guarantee you it's true. This is the opposite of the above item, using their name when praising. Suggesting to somebody to change how they play is a form of criticism, and not everybody responds well. As anybody who's ever been a manager knows, "Praise in public, criticize in private." Once they engage me and show interest, only then will I freely use their name.

4. Could medics spread the love more often by offering to uber a complete stranger? "Yo! PlayerX, I have an uber ready. You want a chance for fame and glory?" Could work best if your team has been racking up victory-after-victory. I believe nothing says, "Welcome to the Ville" more convincingly than the treat and trust of an uber.

There's no reason not to uber somebody just because you don't know them - they could be a great player who you just haven't met before. If the team is doing well and the uber isn't "needed" at the moment, then feel free to pop ubers on whomever as well (within reason - don't uber the sniper, engy, spy etc unless desperate). What shouldn't happen though is if you know somebody is not going to be effective (not "don't know" - "know not" - there's a difference) it's disrespectful to your team to deliberately uber them if the uber is actually needed for an important objective. The team needs to come before anything else.

[cam]

Well said Alizee! Everything I wanted to communicate and more.