Spawn camping

[Torven]

My view on it is that I am playing this game with a bunch of people so we can all have fun. People who go out of their way to kill players coming out a blind spawndoor are not there so that everyone can have fun; they are there to either win at any cost or because they get some kind of amusement out of preventing others from playing. Either way, their behavior is absolutely toxic to the community aspect of the game, and I see no reason to waste my time by spending it in their presence.

[mr_s]

[quote="Torven";p="115457"]
My view on it is that I am playing this game with a bunch of people so we can all have fun. People who go out of their way to kill players coming out a blind spawndoor are not there so that everyone can have fun; they are there to either win at any cost or because they get some kind of amusement out of preventing others from playing. Either way, their behavior is absolutely toxic to the community aspect of the game, and I see no reason to waste my time by spending it in their presence.
[/quote]


ok, so if i play demo and stiki a corner which is used often, and everyone uses that corner - not a spawn corner mind you - will I be treading on your toes?

[DeafOfficeWorker]

It's situational. I don't care what kind of map.

The primary objective on any map is not to sit at the spawn doors lining them with stickies.

There is a server rule concerning spawn camping. If it were me stickying spawn doors, I would be cautious.

[Nick Mame]

I'm always against people outside of a spawn door waiting for someone to shoot. There's often a single way out of spawn. It takes a few seconds to even be aware of stickies or similar on the other side of the door if you are the first person to die by them. And it's just downright frustrating to have died the instant you respawned.

I am against 'camping' choke points (sentries or stickies at a critical path to the objective) if its successful for an extended period of time. If you're able to prevent the offense from seeing the point for ten or so minutes, something is seriously wrong with the balance of the game. A good game is where both sides are constantly under pressure - not where one side can just stand up on a roof and launch stickies without ever fearing for their life. Maybe if this was a competitive league it would be considered a good defense, but with a casual community I'd call it killing the server through excessively crushing the other side.

At that point, I prefer people to either change teams or change classes. Some times the other team has a lot of really good players who just aren't working together well at all... there's no need to give them even more good players, so I often just change to one of my worse classes. If I managed to get a medic Big Pharma during a round against a team of competent players... next round I am definitely not going to play heavy.


There's a difference between a nice competition between two friendly teams and the complete merciless obliteration of one side.

[Torven]

[quote="mr_s";p="115471"][quote="Torven";p="115457"]
My view on it is that I am playing this game with a bunch of people so we can all have fun. People who go out of their way to kill players coming out a blind spawndoor are not there so that everyone can have fun; they are there to either win at any cost or because they get some kind of amusement out of preventing others from playing. Either way, their behavior is absolutely toxic to the community aspect of the game, and I see no reason to waste my time by spending it in their presence.
[/quote]


ok, so if i play demo and stiki a corner which is used often, and everyone uses that corner - not a spawn corner mind you - will I be treading on your toes?[/quote]

Depends on where the corner is. If it is not near spawn (like so many of the chokepoints on Goldrush), then I have no issue with it. If it is near a spawn, then it usually comes down to whether or not the other team can still play. Some maps have small areas immediately outside of their spawn with only one exit. I tend to frown on trapping those exits because it does the same thing as directly camping the spawn door; it gives players the option of sitting on their thumbs for the 40+ seconds it takes to build an uber charge or feeding the KPD of some stat farming jackass. If there are multiple exits from that area (like the setup areas on Dustbowl or Corporation), then I don't have as big a problem, though if one team has another rammed up into their setup area, there is probably a problem with the team balance.

Steel is probably the best example I can give. There are two spawn doors with small alcoves between the spawn door and the rest of the map, the one emptying out to point A and the one going to point E. E I don't have a problem with trapping; the alcove has two doors leading to the point, one of which has partial cover from a stairwell, and there are two other exits from that spawn that can provide access to point E (and are required to if D is taken). Point A is another matter. There is a very short, very narrow hallway between the spawn door and the corner; the only reason it is there is so that Blu can access the battlements overlooking point E. There is only one way out of there, and it is also the only Red access to point A at that stage in the game. The only reason to trap that corner would be because someone is too lazy to actually play the game and would rather force 12 people to sit in their spawn for the duration of the capture than try to defend their hold on the point.

[Squirrel]

We’re getting off track now. Don’t sticky the spawn doors and don’t sit outside the spawn waiting for people to exit. it's very simple.

Everyone plays the game different, that’s what makes it fun. Just play your game and stop worrying about how other people play theirs.

[Freakish]

I used to have very strong feelings on this but it's such a gray thing that I'm over it and don't see much chance at all for true spawn camping in TF2. It's _irritating_ when a pyro+medic make it back to the defensive spawn area on Goldrush stage 1 or the attacker's area on Dustbowl stages 2 and 3, but they're nuisances that can be taken care of pretty quickly--I view it as legit and on the order of a spy sapping an engi's TP entrances and maybe getting a few stabs out of it. Also annoying is a demo camping blind doors like on Turbine. I actually find the latter more lowly because it is entirely impossible to avoid (the first time) and people are slower to catch on to it than when a pyro is outside spawn lighting everyone up.

I'd say TF2 largely prevents sustained spawn camping and what's really being discussed here is sportsmanship, which is way harder to define and enforce. It's often smart strategy to mess around at spawn for as long as you can to give the rest of your team a chance to set up or advance. And I don't agree with letting Defense do more than Attackers or the reverse. If a good attacking team can make it through the defenses and cause heck, then kudos to their good play (or sucks to the defenders who didn't set up well).

[Darkxide]

I see spawn camping as being trapped in the one way out without any other alternative after immediately spawning. If it's around a corner a short while from the spawn, it's probably not spawn camping.

Then again, it's debatable.

[So Uncivilized]

[quote="Torven";p="115453"]

I loiter a little to ignite some respawners and drive them back to the lockers, then move on.

This kind of behavior, on the other hand, usually results in a serious loss of respect for the person doing it and as often as not will cause me to join the other team regardless of any other factors.[/quote]

Now how could I let that one go?

Suffice it to say that I have never been accused of spawn camping, so I must be doing it 'right'...


SU

[Reipin]

I had a long reply typed out but thought better of it.

[So Uncivilized]

i thought better of it, then I typed out a long reply.


Kilaaks got it.



SU

[mr_s]

[quote="Reipin";p="115578"]
I had a long reply typed out but thought better of it.
[/quote]


why all the hate?

[Stevo]

Hate?

[Reipin]

[quote="mr_s";p="115608"][quote="Reipin";p="115578"]
I had a long reply typed out but thought better of it.
[/quote]


why all the hate?[/quote]

LOL I'm not the one hating

[TTHREAZ]

[quote="Freakish";p="115558"]what's really being discussed here is sportsmanship[/quote]

There you go. There's the meat of it.

Sportsmanship.

Common Courtesy.

Common Sense.

That would be one HUGE topic that we could discuss and I'm sure I'd have a crapload to contribute. I'm a proponent of adding things to the game/map to help prevent spawn camping and the like. But, alas, that discussion is for another time.