Assessing results of the two-engie limit on TV-VI-Dustbowl

[Gizanked]

If every round was ending 6-6 then I'd say that this is a terrible failure. Heck. even when there were 3 engies as an option 6-6 still happened. It isn't even like it is constantly getting to the 3 round either. There have been teams holding after 1 cap point and the rest of the team are adjusting rather well. You don't really see the complete defensive shutout like would happen every so often before but not capping a single point was enough to make half of the server want to go out and punch baby seals in the face.

So my observations...

pros
- has created more teamwork for teams on defense
- eliminate a portion of the rage from playing offense
- no more 3 engy offense teams
- win/ loss records don't seem to be completely skewed.

cons
- puts more of a load on the exisiting 2 engies
- fewer options for "that guy" to switch to engy and upgrade a tele at spawn.
- harder to defend ( but still possible)

I'm a big fan of the 2 engy limit. between how it helped tv8 and now tv6. I also feel like it would work well on all of the servers... but ohhh man the outcry that would cause.

[YoullNeverWalkAlone]

If every round was ending 6-6 then I'd say that this is a terrible failure. Heck. even when there were 3 engies as an option 6-6 still happened. It isn't even like it is constantly getting to the 3 round either. There have been teams holding after 1 cap point and the rest of the team are adjusting rather well. You don't really see the complete defensive shutout like would happen every so often before but not capping a single point was enough to make half of the server want to go out and punch baby seals in the face.

They had it coming.

[Earthworm James]

I disagree with the statement that BLU has any assurance of victory on every stage of dustbowl. I have personally defeated BLU and been defeated by RED on dustbowl in many different circumstances over the last month. I have also topped the RED board as engi.

Then again, I am not opposed to having a 3 engi cap, because I love destroying their buildings as demoman - suffer not a sentry to live.

[Last of The Finest]

Having just left a round of TV6 Dustbowl, I stand by my vote of two engineers. My team was shut down at the final point because the players on RED remembered that the T in TF2 stands for Team. Engies were smart, yes, but the whole team was involved in this hold.

[Boss Llama]

Half the server may want to go punch baby seals if they can't push, but the other half also wants to punch baby seals when they can't defend. Either option is better for one team than the other, and as with any either/or situation, I feel we should go with the option that does not restrict choices.

It worked for years, and The Ville proudly had one of the highest levels of play to be found in a pub community. No need to abandon our high standards just because wandering newcomers aren't up to snuff. We should maintain those high standards and help them learn to play well, instead of taking an "everybody gets a trophy" approach.

[black_and_blue]

Red wins the majority of the time on all Attack/Defend maps except Gravelpit.

Let me modify this statement a bit:

RED team holds on to at least one control point until the end of the game on all Attack/Defend maps except Gravelpit.

Although that URL clarifies that as a victory for RED, I wouldn't. Gradually making the game harder for the attacking team as the game progresses is part of how these maps self-balance and make sure that the majority of the game is played on a stage where the map difficulty is appropriate for the skill levels of both teams.

I'd say in a 3-stage attack defend map, RED would ideally hold on to at least one point 75% of the time. Here's my idea breakdown of BLU's progress:

RED successfully holds stage 1 25% of the time (meaning BLU advances to stage 2 75% of the time).
RED loses stage 1 but holds stage 2 25% of the time (meaning BLU advances to stage 3 50% of the time).
RED loses stage 2 but holds stage 3 25% of the time.
RED loses stage 3 25% of the time.

Remember, BLU team gets a point for every point captured.

[trilobite]

Just a quick acknowledgement and thanks to all contributors.

Based on the comments, there are reasonable arguments for both options. That is coming across loud and clear. Each option promotes different, sensible goals. Each option has benefits and tradeoffs. Neither option is ideal for both RED and BLU.

So it really comes down to personal preference.

Players have already started to adjust to this new environment. With every change, there is opportunity. Perhaps these adjustments will lead to consistently more satisfying matches – for both teams.

Going forward, we should periodically re-assess the impact of this limit.

[Plinko]

I'm a big fan of the limit, it's made TV8 much more enjoyable and the same for TV6. One of the bigger bonuses is that by not allowing two engies on BLU, it keeps the BLU team from getting sandbagged by having too many engies that much less often. It also makes it easier for two competent RED engies to defend instead of having a third one taking metal and keeping anyone from getting built up.

The point of dustbowl is supposed to be getting further along in the sequence as BLU than the other team does during their turn. People mistakenly think the point is only to complete all the stages on BLU or stop them before 3 when RED, because pub servers churn players so quickly, the teams may be completely different by the time a full attack/defend cycle is completed and so they don't think about the entire cycle as much.

[MateoTheBold!]

Having the two engy limit on Dustbowl has made playing on the server much more enjoyable for me, regardless of what class or what team I am on. That's why I voted to keep the limit in place.

As to the discussion of the limit hurting new players learn the class:

Comparing post-limit to pre-limit, I have seen more feedback from the team towards inexperienced engineers regarding changes they can make in their playing style that would make them more effective since the change was implemented. People notice an ineffective engy now and they speak up.

[OldMan]

I hate to say it, but I agree with Mateo. I voiced that I like the two engie limit as well. It makes the map playable for me, less stalematey, and more fast and furious.

I have heard mostly constructive comments from "regular" villuns on this server regarding inexperienced engies. There are the occasional "get a real engie" here and there, but for the most part, good advice being given to engies. With only two, it makes them tighten their engie game up a bit and promotes them learning good engie habits I feel. I don't play engie very often, but when I do, I tend to listen to my team about when to move sg's up and where to put dispensers.

Now if we can just get that new Mateo limit installed...

[Earthworm James]

thanks for bringing this up trilobite - good thread & well said on all accounts.

[Snidely Whiplash]

I play on TV VI frequently and it is frustrating when one or both engie slots are occupied by inexperienced players. The lowered class limit leaves experienced players wringing their hands and unable to rectify the situation. Engineers are especially important on stage 3, where most dustbowl gameplay occurs. A mediocre engie can cripple either team on this stage.

[Fano]

But I am posting today AFTER the change, and I am reporting on the resulting outcome -- which has its own problems. I enumerated several in the original post. Basically, BLU has been moving across the map with ever-increasing speed and success.

This is a GOOD thing, people seem to forget that. If RED is able to indefinitely hold the point the game becomes boring for everybody, IMO, at least this way 1 team is having fun (I feel that due to the fact that the map is dustbowl this is quite an accomplishment )

The problem of incompetent engineers is, I think, a silly rebuttal. The fact is that if there are two incompetent engineers on a team then those players are going to be incompetent at any class they choose to play anyway, so your team will effectively be 2 players down regardless of what slots those two engineers occupy. Even if a better player was able to switch to an engineer slot you now have at least 2 incompetent engineers and 1 competent one who will be struggling to keep his equipment alive because now there's a lack of firepower on the front line and the enemy will be able to push in quite easily.

I believe that in any serious attempt to make dustbowl playable a hard limit of 2 engineers is basically mandatory, stalemates are the worst, and even on TV7 I've noticed that some of the most balanced maps (badlands, granary) turn into boring and grindy stalemates thanks to the incomprehensible love affair most players on these servers have with the engineer as a class, I wouldn't be opposed to a 2 engineer limit on all TV servers, quite honestly.

Also my SSD loads fast and I basically get to pick whichever class I want anyway

[Guardian]

Well before I speak I should point out I don't even play here anymore (on account of being in Australia and my internet not working) and I'm never on the server anyways however I honestly think dustbowl is one of the most favorable maps for red so anything to help out blue should be encouraged. People tend to get lazy on Red and screw around a bit without giving much thought into defending (which is probably why your seeing blue rushes now because now red can't get away with being lazy, I remember the same thing happening on the old custom server when we changed the spawns from 10-10 to 8-12).

Regarding the dull engies issue, I honestly think red should learn to defend WITHOUT engies (shocking I know), it's not impossible you can blow up zergs fairly easily from choke points. Blue is the only sides who really needs a certain class (medics, it's nearly impossible to push without an uber).

But I think the poll speaks for itself though.

[CoyoteCreed]

I got the "Specialist" achievement (10,000 heal points in a single life) on this server defending the last point of stage three, setting a personal best for ubercharges in one life in the process. God bless Dustbowl. I'm just glad this change was made afterwards.