Weapon Criticisms

[Earthworm James]

I've put down the shortstop. For a while after its release all you'd see is SS scouts. The style of it doesn't suit me, I prefer the movement advantages of the force of nature, granted the SS has some movement advantages of its own by slowing opponents.

Am loving heavy since release of the GRU

[l3eeron]

I like all the different weapons... I'd like to see even more!

I trust valve to keep all the weapons reasonably balanced. I've never cried "OP!" before.

[abiscuit]

The only thing I don't like are the weapon unlocks that end up replacing the stock weapon for being strictly better. The Blutsauger used to be like this before they buffed the syringe gun, and the Equalizer is simply better than the Shovel except in maybe one or two situations.

[Buzzy Beetle]

Only time I complained (that I can recall) was back when backburner gave the pyro +50 hp as well as 100% crits from behind. Pyro with more HP than a Soldier? More HP than a Heavy when fully buffed? Talk about upsetting class balance. Nothankyou.jpg

Fortunately, this has been changed.

I also kind of want to complain about the Shortstop but I've tried using it. I'm a bad scout as it is, but that thing is just unwieldy. No idea how people can pull off the whole "killing a full HP soldier in two shots" thing but it's certainly not easy!

[Fano]

Huntsman: people complain because of it's hitbox (it's as big as a rocket), and the general spammy nature of the weapon.

Personally, I consider the sniper rifle to be much more entertaining than the huntman, but the fact that it takes much less aim to be effective with the huntsman is disheartening, I can be more effective by spamming arrows down a chokepoint than by taking careful aim with the rifle, especially on maps like warpath (which everyone here seems to be fond of but to be honest I just think it's really bad ).

Natasha: The slow effect is way too effective, a heavy shouldn't be able to make me come to a dead stop from across the map. but the problem isn't so much that, the problem is that it's just not fun to play against a natasha heavy simply because you feel so helpless.

FaN: honestly, I don't know why people put down this weapon so much. The scattergun is just much better, and the only good thing the FaN is good for is triple jumps.

Black Box: that missing rocket really hurts, and if you have a medic on you then the healing effect does nothing, it's really underpowered and I honestly don't see why people every complain about this either.

Shortstop: No problem here, if you can aim with it, great, but you'll generally have more success with the scattergun. The slow down effect is literally non-existent. No seriously, it just isn't there. This is technically a bug but honestly I don't think we need another weapon in the game with a slowdown effect.

Sandman: Taking away control from the players is just bad, I don't care how Overpowered or underpowered the weapon once was, it was just a bad idea from the start.

My main problem right now, especially with the release of the degreaser and the GRU, is that valve seems to be releasing weapons as balance changes rather than alternate play styles. Let's face it, the ONLY way to play pyro decently before the polycount update was with the axtinguisher. But this still left the pyro extremely underpowered, so the degreaser is introduced, and now any pyro who has a degreaser and is not using it is gimping themselves, it's simply better in all aspects over the regular flamethrower. The backburner has it's uses but IMO is very situational compared to the degreaser.

The heavy's ONE drawback was that he's too slow, but now with the GRU that drawback is non-existent, this is a clear upgrade over of the fists and basically released as a balance change for the heavy, the drawback? -50% damage, which the heavy is never going to be affect by because if you're running around meleeing people as a heavy you're just doing it wrong.

The problem with doing this is that they are leaving all the new players in the dust. People playing pyro without the axtinguisher, soldier without the equalizer, medic without the ubersaw, and heavy without the GRU are simply not going to have as much success.

Valve needs to make more unlocks that alternate play styles rather than balance the classes. I love weapons like the gunslinger and the dead ringer, which force players to rethink the classes in a much different way. engineers are now at the front lines instead of wacking a sentry way in the back, spies can now be more aggressive and use the dead ringer to fool their opponents in a different way, etc.

The problem with weapons like the Huntsman and Natasha is that they just ruin the experience for those being killed by those weapons.

[Bronze Fox]

Huntsman: people complain because of it's hitbox (it's as big as a rocket), and the general spammy nature of the weapon.

Personally, I consider the sniper rifle to be much more entertaining than the huntman, but the fact that it takes much less aim to be effective with the huntsman is disheartening, I can be more effective by spamming arrows down a chokepoint than by taking careful aim with the rifle, especially on maps like warpath (which everyone here seems to be fond of but to be honest I just think it's really bad :| ).

Natasha: The slow effect is way too effective, a heavy shouldn't be able to make me come to a dead stop from across the map. but the problem isn't so much that, the problem is that it's just not fun to play against a natasha heavy simply because you feel so helpless.

FaN: honestly, I don't know why people put down this weapon so much. The scattergun is just much better, and the only good thing the FaN is good for is triple jumps.

Black Box: that missing rocket really hurts, and if you have a medic on you then the healing effect does nothing, it's really underpowered and I honestly don't see why people every complain about this either.

Shortstop: No problem here, if you can aim with it, great, but you'll generally have more success with the scattergun. The slow down effect is literally non-existent. No seriously, it just isn't there. This is technically a bug but honestly I don't think we need another weapon in the game with a slowdown effect.

Sandman: Taking away control from the players is just bad, I don't care how Overpowered or underpowered the weapon once was, it was just a bad idea from the start.

My main problem right now, especially with the release of the degreaser and the GRU, is that valve seems to be releasing weapons as balance changes rather than alternate play styles. Let's face it, the ONLY way to play pyro decently before the polycount update was with the axtinguisher. But this still left the pyro extremely underpowered, so the degreaser is introduced, and now any pyro who has a degreaser and is not using it is gimping themselves, it's simply better in all aspects over the regular flamethrower. The backburner has it's uses but IMO is very situational compared to the degreaser.

The heavy's ONE drawback was that he's too slow, but now with the GRU that drawback is non-existent, this is a clear upgrade over of the fists and basically released as a balance change for the heavy, the drawback? -50% damage, which the heavy is never going to be affect by because if you're running around meleeing people as a heavy you're just doing it wrong.

The problem with doing this is that they are leaving all the new players in the dust. People playing pyro without the axtinguisher, soldier without the equalizer, medic without the ubersaw, and heavy without the GRU are simply not going to have as much success.

Valve needs to make more unlocks that alternate play styles rather than balance the classes. I love weapons like the gunslinger and the dead ringer, which force players to rethink the classes in a much different way. engineers are now at the front lines instead of wacking a sentry way in the back, spies can now be more aggressive and use the dead ringer to fool their opponents in a different way, etc.

The problem with weapons like the Huntsman and Natasha is that they just ruin the experience for those being killed by those weapons.

I guess I'm weird, but I use the stock flamethrower for Pyro, and the Homewrecker as well. I guess the reason being is the fact that I've survived the Degreaser's afterburn many times not playing Pyro. As for the Homewrecker, when you use it, it's amazing. I don't need the Axtinguisher because if I airblast someone into a corner, the shotgun will take them out. I guess that doesn't cover Heavies, but I'm not sucicidal enough to try the Axtinguisher on a Heavy with the Degreaser anyway.
Also, I'm pretty sure the Pyro hasn't been underpowered for a while. The Pyro has a much different play-style then the other offensive classes. You can't just blindly run into enemy lines, or you'll just die within seconds. You need to be tactical and use corners to your advantage, and use the shotgun or else your in big trouble. Heh...


Also, I know the shovel is generally regarded as worse in all ways over the Equalizer, but I'll let you know, the shovel is great as a last resort during Ubers. This is mainly due to the fact I am using the Buff Banner, so it's usually four rockets, then shovel. >.>

I actually don't use the Ubersaw, I go Vita-Saw with the stock syringes. Although, I don't really play Medic so I don't care much about my load-out, but you defiantly can play without the Ubersaw and Blutsauger. It's real simple, you don't run in and try to melee people for Uber, while you gain extra health every second. :P

I must agree with your point about the GRU though, I miss punching people's face in, but the GRU... you just need, sadly.

[TheCarpe]

Words.

You've proven my point about the Huntsman. The most carefully aimed arrows and the most skilled archers can't get past of the stigma of "U SPAMMIN".

Natascha doesn't slow you from "across the map". If might make you trip for a second, but the cone of fire for the Minigun is such that the Heavy needs to be within about 10-20 feet of his target for the accumulated slowdown to be effective. I can never figure out if the consensus on Natascha is overpowered or underpowered, everyone seems to have their own ideas.

FaN and Shortstop appeal to different styles of play. The Scattergun is a powerful and all-around good weapon, but I still prefer the power, mobility, and knockback of the FaN, and others appreciate the mid-range power the Shortstop gives them. The best weapon is the one that feels right in your hands

Sandman did as it was always meant to do, give Scouts more value on a team on defense. It still does that, to a point, but it's been so heavily nerfed it's barely a shadow of it's former (awesome) self. Alas.

I also take issue with your notion that unlocks are somehow necessary to succeed. If you're thinking the Axtinguisher was the only way a Pyro could be effective, then you must not have played a whole lot of Pyro. I've not touched the Axtinguisher since the first week I unlocked it back in the Pyro Update, and I've never missed it. I don't think anyone here will argue that I'm still a fearsome Pyro without it. I've only recently switched off full stock loadout to use the Degreaser, and I mostly use that for swift shotgun finishes.

The Equalizer, GRU, and Ubersaw are nice, but by no means a necessity to succeed in the game. We all used the stock loadouts for a long time before the unlocks came, and they're just as useful and balanced now as they ever were.

[TTHREAZ]

I like the Shortstop and use it exclusively now. It has the best of both worlds of the Scattergun (Power and Multiple Pellets) and the Pistol (Long Range). Yes, you have to aim more. Yes, you can't strafe too much with it. With its speed, however, it's quite the nice little weapon.

As far as I'm concerned, the Scout's 3 primary weapons are totally interchangeable and are well balanced. Each brings its own strengths to the table and each has its weaknesses. I find if people actually spend the time to play with them (for HOURS, not a few minutes), they come to the same conclusion. With them being so balanced, it all comes down to personal preference and playstyle.



I LOVE the Sandman. One of my Top 5 favorite things to do in this game is to bonk someone and take them out as they waddle around with their arms in the air. Is it frustrating to get bonked? Heck yeah, it is. Let me fill you in on a little secret, though. If your teammates are paying attention for that bonk sound on a teammate, they should focus their attention on protecting that person. The Bonk-->Kill isn't guaranteed for the Scout if the recipient of the bonk has buddies around him to protect him while the stun wears off.

Also, the bonk isn't automatic. Try hitting people consistently with it, especially at longer distances. You'll find that it takes practice to become proficient with it.

[Masakari]

I agree with biscuit on the pure upgrade situation - the situation with the Equalizer is very much like that, and it makes the shovel pointless in almost every way.

Only weapon that's really bugged me is the sandman, as stunning people had to be the dumbest idea ever introduced in the game (And inb4 Carpe rage, I remember Valve even mentioning that they made a mistake in the sandman, so take that!). There have been a few that I haven't been a fan of, but nothing really overpowered.

We all used the stock loadouts for a long time before the unlocks came, and they're just as useful and balanced now as they ever were.

I would disagree with that - once you start adding weapons into the mix, previous weapons can become less and less useful. In the case of the equalizer, the benefits of using it outweigh what is essentially the one negative of it (Inability to get healed). Adding new weapons and items does change balance of previously existing items, sometimes for good, sometimes for bad.

[TheCarpe]

And inb4 Carpe rage, I remember Valve even mentioning that they made a mistake in the sandman, so take that!

Well, I think I know a little more about what's good for this game than they do

[Bronze Fox]

And inb4 Carpe rage, I remember Valve even mentioning that they made a mistake in the sandman, so take that!

Well, I think I know a little more about what's good for this game than they do

What's good the game could be bad for the players.

[Fano]

I guess I'm weird, but I use the stock flamethrower for Pyro, and the Homewrecker as well. I guess the reason being is the fact that I've survived the Degreaser's afterburn many times not playing Pyro. As for the Homewrecker, when you use it, it's amazing. I don't need the Axtinguisher because if I airblast someone into a corner, the shotgun will take them out. I guess that doesn't cover Heavies, but I'm not sucicidal enough to try the Axtinguisher on a Heavy with the Degreaser anyway.
Also, I'm pretty sure the Pyro hasn't been underpowered for a while. The Pyro has a much different play-style then the other offensive classes. You can't just blindly run into enemy lines, or you'll just die within seconds. You need to be tactical and use corners to your advantage, and use the shotgun or else your in big trouble. Heh...


Also, I know the shovel is generally regarded as worse in all ways over the Equalizer, but I'll let you know, the shovel is great as a last resort during Ubers. This is mainly due to the fact I am using the Buff Banner, so it's usually four rockets, then shovel. >.>

I actually don't use the Ubersaw, I go Vita-Saw with the stock syringes. Although, I don't really play Medic so I don't care much about my load-out, but you defiantly can play without the Ubersaw and Blutsauger. It's real simple, you don't run in and try to melee people for Uber, while you gain extra health every second.

I must agree with your point about the GRU though, I miss punching people's face in, but the GRU... you just need, sadly.

You can definitely play without the equalizer, ubersaw, axtinguisher, and degreaser, but I'd call you crazy if you told me that you wouldn't be more effective with those weapons at hand.

As a pyro, you can't really expect afterburn to finish anybody, and you shouldn't base your weapon choice on a couple of bad experiences where you've died because you couldn't find a health kit/medic/jarate/milk in time, because at that point I'm sure you would've died to the reduced afterburn anyway.

as for the shovel being a last resort in ubers, I would argue that the better choice would be to keep loading rockets one by one, as a soldier you aren't very fast so unless people are getting in your face your melee isn't going to do much, not to mention you should think about retreating as soon as the uber starts to fade (or even earlier). A good medic will probably get the hell out of there if he notices that you haven't done enough damage for him to survive, so you should do the same, just load an extra rocket and jump the hell out of there, obviously warn your medic that you're doing so

The ubersaw situation is a bit different, since very rarely will you be able to use the advantage of +25% uber without dying, but having that advantage there means that if you have 75% uber or above you can go for one melee swipe and then immediately switch to your medigun to get the hell out of there if there aren't any team mates nearby, I can't tell you how often that tactic has saved my ass, even during scrims.

The blutsauger is pretty much a downgrade now because of the reduced passive healing, although still a viable choice if you think you can put the +3 health to good use, but the majority of the time you'll want the passive effect, you can nearly negate afterburn with it.

You've proven my point about the Huntsman. The most carefully aimed arrows and the most skilled archers can't get past of the stigma of "U SPAMMIN".

A skilled sniper can and will always do way more damage with the standard rifle, if your aim is as good as you say it is, try switching back and see if you don't get headshot after headshot with it.

The skill ceiling of a huntsman sniper is incredibly low, I'm not saying it's all based on luck or spamming chokepoints, but a good majority of it involves doing those things.

Natascha doesn't slow you from "across the map". If might make you trip for a second, but the cone of fire for the Minigun is such that the Heavy needs to be within about 10-20 feet of his target for the accumulated slowdown to be effective. I can never figure out if the consensus on Natascha is overpowered or underpowered, everyone seems to have their own ideas.

it used to be underpowered because people could just jump and get knocked by the heavies own bullets away from the cone of fire enough for the slow down effect to be negated. The problem now is that the death grip has returned, which means that even if you jump natasha will still slow you down to a crawl in mid air. The only tactic against the natasha now is to find a corner and flank the heavy from another side.

actually, that same strategy applies to heavies in general, the problem is that natasha just makes it that much harder to get around a corner, the slow down allows other classes to catch up to you, and you just feel helpless because you can't move, the effect is similarly frustrating to the sandman's effect.

I've been in the situation many times where, on badwater (for example), defending the second point as a soldier on the lower part where the tracks are, a heavy shoots at me from way back on the hill, right next to a sniper, the heavy slows me down enough to allow the sniper to headshot me more reliably, the heavy didn't kill me, but he made me literally helpless against any other players that had their focus on me, like that sniper.

FaN and Shortstop appeal to different styles of play. The Scattergun is a powerful and all-around good weapon, but I still prefer the power, mobility, and knockback of the FaN, and others appreciate the mid-range power the Shortstop gives them. The best weapon is the one that feels right in your hands

I'm not a big fan of either weapon but I don't go out of my way to complain about them. Being killed by the FaN isn't really frustrating to me, and I actually love the shortstop's concept.

I also take issue with your notion that unlocks are somehow necessary to succeed. If you're thinking the Axtinguisher was the only way a Pyro could be effective, then you must not have played a whole lot of Pyro. I've not touched the Axtinguisher since the first week I unlocked it back in the Pyro Update, and I've never missed it. I don't think anyone here will argue that I'm still a fearsome Pyro without it. I've only recently switched off full stock loadout to use the Degreaser, and I mostly use that for swift shotgun finishes.

The argument isn't that the Axtinguisher is the only way for a Pyro to be effective, the argument is that the weapon is simply better in 99% of situations, and you'd be deluding yourself to think otherwise,
In which situations is the fire axe a better weapon? The only situation I can think of is in a pyro vs pyro, and in that situation the powerjack is probably the better weapon anyway.

these days when I play pyro I find it unnecessary to axtinguish people as the degreaser allows me to finish people off with the shotgun much more reliably either way, but it's nice to have the axinguisher when you really need that kill, the degreaser's weapon switch is so fast that you could sneak up on a heavy and sometimes kill him before he notices you're there, it's a powerful tool and a great way to deal a quick 195 on more heavier classes like soldiers and demomen.

The Equalizer, GRU, and Ubersaw are nice, but by no means a necessity to succeed in the game. We all used the stock loadouts for a long time before the unlocks came, and they're just as useful and balanced now as they ever were.

Again, not a necessity, but players using these weapons will be at an advantage over those who aren't.


To whoever said the pyro isn't still underpowered: I don't know, to be honest, I always feel gimped when playing pyro, but there have also been situations where I feel completely helpless against a pyro as a soldier or scout, so I guess it's 50-50.

I used to play pyro a lot, but I've been giving my hours to other classes lately and have been much more successful. In a competitive environment, I can tell you that with the pyro's current state, you will get nowhere, however he can really shine in a pub setting. Valve's problem right now is balancing the pyro for competitive play without overpowering him in public games, I really don't know what could be done there :/

[TheCarpe]

Well, there's your problem. You're comparing what we do here to competitive play.



The two are totally unable to be compared to one another. Competitive play only has four classes anyway

[Yahoo!!]

I thought of somethings that are annoying and not annoying.

-Ubersaw is mostly used, but I feel that maybe to make the original bonesaw good is that it has a huge chance of critical attacks.

-Dead Ringer I feel might need a change. I have been using it lately and I must admit it isn't the feign death that makes it powerful, but the damage reduction after using it. I swear I had the living daylights beaten out of me after using it but I still survive and come back later.

-GRU is easily better than any set of gloves. It needs to cause more damage to the heavy (20 per tick or something) so that the movement increase is off-set.

-Blackbox is good because I find that most soldiers don't get medics and it increases my staying power in fights. It also allows me to beat other soldiers one on one because I get that extra 45 health. The health bonus works on bonk scouts as well. I sometimes just fire random rockets at a bunch of enemies so I can grab some health. I think they should limit the blackbox to 2 shots instead, so that if you encounter another soldier one on one, you can't kill him without reloading.

-Shortstop is a beast of a weapon against all classes except scout. It's funny, but wow is the shortstop useless against other scouts. Scattergun is way better at killing scouts and the FaN is good for surprises. I think in the end this weapon is now balanced because I found it overwhelming against heavies, soldiers, etc, but poor against other scouts.

-Original backburner was broken as well with the +50 health. I thought it made the pyro way to tanky. I think though they should do something so that the backburner is useful again. It lacks the compression blast, which is an instant turn-off for most people.

-Sandman in its original form was the most broken weapon introduced in the game, hands down. If I called a weapon straight overpowered, this was it. It was annoying, but it was also game changing as well. It was so much better than the regular bat at the time. It was so ridiculous when it was introduced I stopped playing heavy/medic entirely. Great stun, no damage reduction, hits ubers, recharges in 20 seconds and you can pick up your ball again? Yes, that was the worst thing Valve had ever done. I could live with the temporary lack of control of my guy, but boy was I ticked off when I got stunned with an uber. I could instagib heavies, medics, hell any class really that got nailed with the baseball. Now, I think the sandman is in the right place. It does give the scout a slight edge, but it does not hit ubers, there is a damage reduction and it gives slight movement to the victim.

[Fano]

Well, there's your problem. You're comparing what we do here to competitive play.

The two are totally unable to be compared to one another. Competitive play only has four classes anyway

shows how much you know the only class that really isn't used in competitive is the pyro. Even the spy sees some play at least once or twice during a match.


@Yahoo: I think that limiting the Black Box to only two rockets would simply make way too underpowered D= it's bad enough already with that missing rocket, I always miss having that fourth rocket when I'm using it. especially if you like to bomb people with rocket jumps.